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 Post subject: Re: Starling Marte -- The Key?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:21 pm 
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Marte is like a small, stringy Juan Gonzalez. Or Vlad Guerrero. Just swinging at everything - hitting the ball hard, but swinging at every damn pitch. That kind of approach should not be leading off.

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 Post subject: Re: Starling Marte -- The Key?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:48 pm 
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Willton wrote:
I have to disagree. The Pirates should play to each player's strengths, not put them in positions that magnify their respective weaknesses. Walker is better at getting on base than Marte is, and Marte has more raw power than Walker does. Thus, Walker should be leading off over Marte, and Marte should be hitting further down in the lineup.

Walker may hit well with runners on, but so do most hitters, and that includes every starter on the Pirates. The Pirates need more instances with runners on, and Walker is more adept at providing that. Marte can still exploit his speed as a #5 or #6 hitter.

This conversation highlights the fact that this team doesn't have a great option at the leadoff spot.

Not everyone hits better with runners on, and Walker was right there with Walker and Jones in that regard. I think Alvarez will get better with that, but Jones may regress a bit. I guess I am saying I'd hate to move one of our 3 good run producing bats up to lead off.

The points being made about Marte and his lack of OBP are certainly valid, which is why this is an interesting decision. If Marte gets on base more, I love his speed creating havoc at the top of the order. I know OBP is more important than speed, but I don't think the speed factor should simply be written off as unimportant.


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 Post subject: Re: Starling Marte -- The Key?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:17 pm 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
Marte is like a small, stringy Juan Gonzalez. Or Vlad Guerrero. Just swinging at everything - hitting the ball hard, but swinging at every damn pitch. That kind of approach should not be leading off.


I tend to agree. However, this post addresses reality. And the reality of the situation is that Clint Hurdle is likely to bat Marte lead-off. I'm saying that it CAN work out if Marte hits .300 or better.


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 Post subject: Re: Starling Marte -- The Key?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:20 pm 
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Looking back, your initial argument is that if the top three guys in the lineup get on base a lot, the offense should be decent. I agree!

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 Post subject: Re: Starling Marte -- The Key?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:25 pm 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
Looking back, your initial argument is that if the top three guys in the lineup get on base a lot, the offense should be decent. I agree!


Basically, that development would make up for the black offensive hole at SS and the potential low-average spots at C, 1B, and RF.

If Cutch, Pedro, and Jones all hit home runs in 2013 at the same pace they hit dingers in 2012, along with the top three guys getting on base, then you could see -- GASP! -- an above average offense. That would be pretty cool.


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 Post subject: Re: Starling Marte -- The Key?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:26 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Willton wrote:
I have to disagree. The Pirates should play to each player's strengths, not put them in positions that magnify their respective weaknesses. Walker is better at getting on base than Marte is, and Marte has more raw power than Walker does. Thus, Walker should be leading off over Marte, and Marte should be hitting further down in the lineup.

Walker may hit well with runners on, but so do most hitters, and that includes every starter on the Pirates. The Pirates need more instances with runners on, and Walker is more adept at providing that. Marte can still exploit his speed as a #5 or #6 hitter.

This conversation highlights the fact that this team doesn't have a great option at the leadoff spot.

Not everyone hits better with runners on, and Walker was right there with Walker and Jones in that regard. I think Alvarez will get better with that, but Jones may regress a bit. I guess I am saying I'd hate to move one of our 3 good run producing bats up to lead off.

The points being made about Marte and his lack of OBP are certainly valid, which is why this is an interesting decision. If Marte gets on base more, I love his speed creating havoc at the top of the order. I know OBP is more important than speed, but I don't think the speed factor should simply be written off as unimportant.

Few teams have "great" options at leadoff, but every team has to make the best choice as far as who among their position players should bat leadoff. In the case of the Pirates, it's Walker. There is no more appropriate player to do so.

Whether or not everyone hits better with runners on is immaterial; what matters is which Pirates players hit better with runners on. In that context, Walker hitting better with runners on is nothing special: all of his teammates share the same trait.

Walker can still produce runs from the leadoff position; he just won't do it in the first inning. There will be plenty of times when he'll be up with one or more of the 7, 8, and 9 hitters on base. Plus, as the leadoff man, he can produce runs by scoring them himself.

The point of moving Walker to leadoff is that his plate appearances will come sooner and more often on a per game basis. If Walker is as good as we say he is, then he should given more opportunities to hit, not fewer.

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Last edited by Willton on Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Starling Marte -- The Key?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:58 pm 
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I'm 100% on board with that idea.

JC, if your point is that it looks like it will be Marte and there is nothing we can do about that, well...yeah. I don't disagree. But it's a message board and this is just how it works up in here yo!

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 Post subject: Re: Starling Marte -- The Key?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:58 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
Looking back, your initial argument is that if the top three guys in the lineup get on base a lot, the offense should be decent. I agree!


Basically, that development would make up for the black offensive hole at SS and the potential low-average spots at C, 1B, and RF.

If Cutch, Pedro, and Jones all hit home runs in 2013 at the same pace they hit dingers in 2012, along with the top three guys getting on base, then you could see -- GASP! -- an above average offense. That would be pretty cool.



Pedro is hitting 50 HRs this year. 50!

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 Post subject: Re: Starling Marte -- The Key?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:25 am 
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Yeah I don't know about 50 but I think Pedro is going to hit much better this year than last year. Barmes will hit better too, though probably not to league average.


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 Post subject: Re: Starling Marte -- The Key?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:54 am 
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Willton wrote:
Few teams have "great" options at leadoff


As an example take a look at the WS contender Braves roster.

As I have said all winter, Tabata hits leadoff against LHP, Walker against RHP.

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 Post subject: Re: Starling Marte -- The Key?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:52 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
As I have said all winter, Tabata hits leadoff against LHP, Walker against RHP.


Tabata is the key this season. If he does anything, we should be better. And I like your idea quoted above.


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 Post subject: Re: Starling Marte -- The Key?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:44 pm 
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http://www.whygavs.com/pittsburgh-pirat ... -leap.html


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 Post subject: Re: Starling Marte -- The Key?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:08 pm 
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Nail on the head...... 8-) 8-)


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