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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:32 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
I will take Williams viewpoint over DK's most anytime. Williams has no axe to grind where it is DK's job to stir up the hornet's nest. JMHO.... 8-) 8-) 8-)


That's how a lot of people here tend to think. And that's fine.

But no one cares to address my perfectly logical, rational point that the person actually interacting with the interviewee is in the best position to interpret his words. I suppose if it doesn't fit your viewpoint, you can just choose to ignore it...


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:34 pm 
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Not to get in the middle of this, but here's an excerpt from an interview by MiLB.com with Polanco as repoirted on Tim's site today-

"Polanco was asked about his injury, and noted that he sprained the ankle during the season, and it got swollen again in Florida. That was a controversial topic this off-season. As I mentioned a few months ago, Polanco only had swelling, and wasn’t seriously injured during instructs as reported. That’s what Polanco told me when I talked to him during instructs. That’s the same thing the Pirates have been saying. And now Polanco is saying it again."

On side not that is great - "Bell notes that his knee is holding up. He’s been working at IMG Academy, working on strengthening his lower half. He’s doing outfield drills, which is a good sign."

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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:37 pm 
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DK didn't say Polanco was "seriously injured." He said Polanco "reinjured" the ankle, which is what happened (i.e., the additional swelling). And he heard this directly from Polanco's interpreter.

So what's the point, exactly?


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:17 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
I will take Williams viewpoint over DK's most anytime. Williams has no axe to grind where it is DK's job to stir up the hornet's nest. JMHO.... 8-) 8-) 8-)

Yeah, but if the DK version is what actually happened, then I am glad he's grinding the axe.

And just to be clear, I personally have no problem with SEALs training, per se. I went to jump school and trained off and on with the Rangers when I was in the military. I think there's a lot of good that can be learned from such team, and personhood, training sessions. I was not worried about our young lads losing three days of bunting training. However, SEALs instructors, special forces instructors, hell, even Basic DIs, get A LOT of instruction in how to tear individuals down in order to build them back up as a team. They are very very good at what they do. My problem was that we seemed to want to channel those instructors, on our own, and that is problematic.


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:27 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
But no one cares to address my perfectly logical, rational point that the person actually interacting with the interviewee is in the best position to interpret his words. I suppose if it doesn't fit your viewpoint, you can just choose to ignore it...
Az Bucco fan wrote:
I will take Williams viewpoint over DK's most anytime. Williams has no axe to grind where it is DK's job to stir up the hornet's nest. JMHO.... 8-) 8-) 8-)


That's how a lot of people here tend to think. And that's fine.

But no one cares to address my perfectly logical, rational point that the person actually interacting with the interviewee is in the best position to interpret his words. I suppose if it doesn't fit your viewpoint, you can just choose to ignore it...


Oh I hear you. I just tend to take much of what he says with a grain of salt and prefer the more middle ground style of williams. A listener can also interpret anything he hears in his own way too. I can see your point. 8-) 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:56 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
DK didn't say Polanco was "seriously injured." He said Polanco "reinjured" the ankle, which is what happened (i.e., the additional swelling). And he heard this directly from Polanco's interpreter.

So what's the point, exactly?



DK quote 10/23/12 - "...the ankle was reinjured. Worse than before." He goes on to say that management is spreading "a bald-faced lie" regarding Polanco only having swelling in October.

Its been a key point of contention between TW and DK.

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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:10 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
DK didn't say Polanco was "seriously injured." He said Polanco "reinjured" the ankle, which is what happened (i.e., the additional swelling). And he heard this directly from Polanco's interpreter.

So what's the point, exactly?


DK quote 10/23/12 - "...the ankle was reinjured. Worse than before." He goes on to say that management is spreading "a bald-faced lie" regarding Polanco only having swelling in October.

Its been a key point of contention between TW and DK.


Wrong. It's a key point of contention between TW and Polanco's interpreter, who was the exact source for that statement in DK's column.

Unless, of course, either you or TW are claiming that DK just made that up. Are you?


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:54 pm 
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Reading just about everything that the two have written on this issue since this story "broke," its my opinion that one has been relatively consistent in his reporting and the other's story has gone through several permutations. That's my $.02.

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:56 pm 
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Someone ring a bell....... 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:35 pm 
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Missed you Az. (BTW, sitting at the bar looking at the harp right now...enjoying a Boddy's!)

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Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:44 pm 
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Lets go bucs.


Last edited by Charleston_Charlies on Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:08 am 
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No. 9 wrote:
enjoying a Boddy's!


The cream of Manchester....... :lol: :lol:

Charleston_Charlies wrote:
Great posters like AZ quit posting here because of the repeatedly negative comments from people like you.


Chas. Charlie....it's ok...I installed a filter...in and out....good move...beat 'em bucs....


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:44 am 
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The point is, and always has been, the derivative military-style training that the Pirates forced prospects to go through. "Hell Week," they called it. Making prospects get up at 5:00 a.m. when they have a 10:00 a.m. game and make them jump over ice pools, carry small telephone poles along the beach, and slide into second base where a coach is waiting for them.

All of that is dumb, risky, and pointless. Anyone disagree? Anyone?

If it happens again, I believe that NH, Kyle Stark, and Larry Broadway could definitely be described as acting in an insubordinate fashion.


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:10 pm 
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Don't worry JC, DK has a buddy in John Perotto who wrote a crap piece for our top 10 prospects at BA. He doesn't even mention any of our prospects until the end and does so flippantly. Kind of an "oh by the way, this system is very good and has several impact talents".

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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:59 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
Don't worry JC, DK has a buddy in John Perotto who wrote a crap piece for our top 10 prospects at BA. He doesn't even mention any of our prospects until the end and does so flippantly. Kind of an "oh by the way, this system is very good and has several impact talents".


I've read Perrotto's stuff at the BCT a while back. He was a very good writer and beat reporter back in the day. I have heard that his more recent stuff hasn't been as good, but I don't know first-hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:37 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
The point is, and always has been, the derivative military-style training that the Pirates forced prospects to go through. "Hell Week," they called it. Making prospects get up at 5:00 a.m. when they have a 10:00 a.m. game and make them jump over ice pools, carry small telephone poles along the beach, and slide into second base where a coach is waiting for them.

All of that is dumb, risky, and pointless. Anyone disagree? Anyone?

If it happens again, I believe that NH, Kyle Stark, and Larry Broadway could definitely be described as acting in an insubordinate fashion.


JC -
You're citing what Kovacevic is now saying. Bottom line? It hasn't always been about Hell Week and the Hoka Hey mentality. That is where Kovacevic's current position evolved and morphed after his initial indignation. Polanco was allegedly injured/re-injured/aggravated his injury during the Navy Seals exercises. That was Kovacevic's big first issue and he was quite vocal about his opinion on the ridiculousness of the Pirates being engaged with the Seals. His righteous indignation with the Pirates and the Seals has fallen to the wayside and his claims are now that it has "always been" about Hell Week and Hoka Hey. Further, he decried the fact that NH and FC defended portions of what Kyle Stark was doing and referred to it as insubordination. He isn't claiming that, if those practices continue, it will be insubordination, he has accused them of past insubordination. Given Nutting's comments both at the time and just recently, it is more than evident that neither NH nor FC's past commentary comes close to insubordination. It was an overreach by Kovacevic and, IMO, driven by his current dislike of both FC and NH.

Again, that's just my $.02 on the situation.

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:40 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
Don't worry JC, DK has a buddy in John Perotto who wrote a crap piece for our top 10 prospects at BA. He doesn't even mention any of our prospects until the end and does so flippantly. Kind of an "oh by the way, this system is very good and has several impact talents".


I've read Perrotto's stuff at the BCT a while back. He was a very good writer and beat reporter back in the day. I have heard that his more recent stuff hasn't been as good, but I don't know first-hand.

Perrotto's work used to be great, both at BCT and on Baseball Prospectus, up until he had a row with the Pirates media department. After that, his writing about the PBC has had a thick air of disdain.

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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:49 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
The point is, and always has been, the derivative military-style training that the Pirates forced prospects to go through. "Hell Week," they called it. Making prospects get up at 5:00 a.m. when they have a 10:00 a.m. game and make them jump over ice pools, carry small telephone poles along the beach, and slide into second base where a coach is waiting for them.

All of that is dumb, risky, and pointless. Anyone disagree? Anyone?

If it happens again, I believe that NH, Kyle Stark, and Larry Broadway could definitely be described as acting in an insubordinate fashion.


JC -
You're citing what Kovacevic is now saying. Bottom line? It hasn't always been about Hell Week and the Hoka Hey mentality. That is where Kovacevic's current position evolved and morphed after his initial indignation. Polanco was allegedly injured/re-injured/aggravated his injury during the Navy Seals exercises. That was Kovacevic's big first issue and he was quite vocal about his opinion on the ridiculousness of the Pirates being engaged with the Seals. His righteous indignation with the Pirates and the Seals has fallen to the wayside and his claims are now that it has "always been" about Hell Week and Hoka Hey. Further, he decried the fact that NH and FC defended portions of what Kyle Stark was doing and referred to it as insubordination. He isn't claiming that, if those practices continue, it will be insubordination, he has accused them of past insubordination. Given Nutting's comments both at the time and just recently, it is more than evident that neither NH nor FC's past commentary comes close to insubordination. It was an overreach by Kovacevic and, IMO, driven by his current dislike of both FC and NH.

Again, that's just my $.02 on the situation.


The situation was certainly fluid, but DK was relying on direct sources -- Jameson Taillon and Gregory Polanco's interpreter. He reported what they told him about the drills and conditions. The fact that the story morphed doesn't offend me in the slightest; stories will evolve, and reporters evolve with them.

What's funny to me is that no one here has answered my question -- does anyone think derivative military-style drills and "Hell Week" were good ideas? Does anyone think it would NOT be insubordination for Huntington, Stark, and Broadway to institute similar drills in 2013?

THAT is what matters. And I for one am very glad that DK brought this to light, because it means the end of derivative military-style training drills. Which is a good thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:09 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
The situation was certainly fluid, but DK was relying on direct sources -- Jameson Taillon and Gregory Polanco's interpreter. He reported what they told him about the drills and conditions. The fact that the story morphed doesn't offend me in the slightest; stories will evolve, and reporters evolve with them.

What's funny to me is that no one here has answered my question -- does anyone think derivative military-style drills and "Hell Week" were good ideas? Does anyone think it would NOT be insubordination for Huntington, Stark, and Broadway to institute similar drills in 2013?

THAT is what matters. And I for one am very glad that DK brought this to light, because it means the end of derivative military-style training drills. Which is a good thing.

Umm, I did. I know that I don't post that much, but for the record, I don't have a problem with Navy SEALs training, both for the team-building and individual growth they can provide. I do have a problem with the team carrying on those practices because, done wrong, they can be detrimental. And to say we did it wrong would be flattering.

I'm confused, though, as to your ire at insubordination-that-hasn't-even-happened-yet. Do you think that Nutting has so lost control of his team that this is a concern for fans?


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:22 pm 
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Sorry, val. You did answer the question. So my post should read "no one other than val" has answered the larger (and more important) question.


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