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 Post subject: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:53 am 
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Anyone who posts/reads here regularly is well aware of the "less than friendly" debate between Tim Williams and Dejan Kovacevic regarding the military/Navy SEAL reporting.

One area of debate between the two involved Nutting's response and the degree to which Nutting may have "ordered" such activities to cease and desist.

I offer this as Nutting's latest commentary: http://pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/news/ ... t&c_id=pit

I leave it up to you to decide whether it was Williams or Kovacevic who got Nutting's "take" on the issue correct.

Edit#1: http://www.piratesprospects.com/2012/12 ... ining.html

Edit #2: http://blog.triblive.com/dejan-kovacevi ... nt-office/

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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:13 pm 
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As someone else said, Nutting probably wants to win but doesn't know how. Otherwise he wouldn't employ boneheads like he does. I've said for a while now that Nutting is part of the problem not the solution. He spends on Cutch and everyone jumps on here and starts the old "told ya so's". He signed one player, one HE HAD TO, to survive in Pittsburgh. What exactly else is he doing to make Pittsburgh a winner. Endorsing programs that nobody else in baseball does? Employing walking, talking boobs like Frank Coonelly? Keeping an underperforming GM? And giving one quote to one reporter and a different one to another. One, who by the way works for the Pirates. So what is your point.

Nobody is allowed to call out the Pirates. Perrotto does it and he is a bitter guy who drinks too much. Law does it and he is an idiot that doesn't know anything. The other ESPN guys do it and well...they work for ESPN. DK does it and he has an axe to grind. Biertempfel gets a report wrong(or it just changed from what he was originally told) and he isn't to be trusted. It's been 20 years of stupidity, poor performance, lack of talent, lack of direction. The last 5 years have shown marginal improvement, with marginal being the key term. Much of it has been in spite of the owner and current GM, not because of them. DK actually gives a pass to the owner, I don't.

Funny thing is that when I first came on this board DK was, of course, No. 12. And his holier than thou attitude drove me nuts. I rarely posted back then because of it. I've learned to view him a bit differently over his professional career. Don't get me wrong, his attitude still grates on me, but I still enjoy his writing. Columnists are never going to please everyone all the time. I agree with some of his stuff, and some I don't. In this case, people say he is beating a dead horse. Maybe, maybe not. The fact is he had quotes from some of our minor league players(top ones at that), agents, other baseball people, etc. all agreed this Hoka Hey stuff was laughable and ridiculous. Nobody else is doing it. My point has always been that when you add it to all of the other facts, such as employing Stark and Broadway who have no baseball teaching experience, our constant lack of fundamentals as an organization, not so great player acquisitions just to name a few, it throws it over the top that these guys should have been fired.

So far I count two posters who don't think the HH stuff should be swept under the rug, myself and val. And neither of us, to my knowledge, have started a thread any time recently to bring it up. It only gets discussed here when one of you guys feels the need to bash DK for it. He is getting paid to voice his opinion on Pittsburgh sports. If this is his opinion then so be it. With Twitter, blogs, and message boards like this all talking about him and his opinion, apparently he is accomplishing his goal.


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:34 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Nobody is allowed to call out the Pirates.

Right. That never happens, and I've never done it myself.

Quote:
Biertempfel gets a report wrong(or it just changed from what he was originally told) and he isn't to be trusted.

No, Beirtempfel isn't to be trusted because he often writes things that turn out to be untrue. Either he's making stuff up or his sources suck.

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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:16 pm 
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Dancing on the head of a pin...

To me, it doesn't matter. It's interpretation of a man's words. I'm more inclined to trust DK's opinion because he actually interacts with Bob Nutting and Tim Williams just reads what Bob Nutting says. It means something to ask a man questions and get answers.

More importantly, I'm confident that we won't see prospects leaping over ice pools at 6:30 a.m. or carrying small telephone pools along the beach. Those kinds of idiotic drills are OVER. I don't mind team members sitting down with Navy SEALS and learning about their mental process; but I certainly don't want to see "Hell Week" again. I assume most (if not all) posters here can agree with that.


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:08 pm 
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Team bonding can be a very valuable experience. Maybe they should try a ropes course next time.....learns trust and teamwork... 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:20 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Dancing on the head of a pin...


If so . . . then how does one reconcile the "blatant insubordination" accusations?

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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:49 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
Dancing on the head of a pin...


If so . . . then how does one reconcile the "blatant insubordination" accusations?


Again, read the rest of my post. I'm more inclined to trust DK's opinion because he actually interacts with Bob Nutting and Tim Williams just reads what Bob Nutting says. It means something to ask a man questions and get answers.

If Bob Nutting's answers to DK's questions led DK to believe that the military-style DRILLS (not necessarily training) were banned, then I'm definitely going to believe that. Tim Williams didn't talk to Bob Nutting.

Also, if you see Pirates' prospects jumping over ice pools at 6:30 a.m. or carrying small telephone pools along the beach, then let me know and we'll see if Bob Nutting considers it "blatant insubordination."


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:16 pm 
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Its my understanding that the alleged injury to Polanco (not sure regarding Taillon) derided by Kovacevic took place during the SEALs activity. Based upon Nutting's comments, I don't any indication where there is a mandate that it is stopping. Indeed, Nutting's comment was "I think that Neal has it right." That, at least in my opinion, seems a far cry from the previously levied accusations of Huntington being "insubordinate."

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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:24 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Its my understanding that the alleged injury to Polanco (not sure regarding Taillon) derided by Kovacevic took place during the SEALs activity. Based upon Nutting's comments, I don't any indication where there is a mandate that it is stopping. Indeed, Nutting's comment was "I think that Neal has it right." That, at least in my opinion, seems a far cry from the previously levied accusations of Huntington being "insubordinate."


You're reading Nutting's comments. I'm reading Nutting's comments. Tim Williams is reading Nutting's comments.

DK interviewed Nutting and spoke with him face-to-face.

Whose opinion will be most informed?

Again, if there's another "Hell Week" with prospects jumping over ice pools at 6:30 a.m. or carrying small telephone poles along the beach, then I will certainly be of the opinion that NH and his staff are being "insubordinate." But I'll bet those kinds of things stop and we never have to find out.


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:28 pm 
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I will take Williams viewpoint over DK's most anytime. Williams has no axe to grind where it is DK's job to stir up the hornet's nest. JMHO.... 8-) 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:32 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
I will take Williams viewpoint over DK's most anytime. Williams has no axe to grind where it is DK's job to stir up the hornet's nest. JMHO.... 8-) 8-) 8-)


That's how a lot of people here tend to think. And that's fine.

But no one cares to address my perfectly logical, rational point that the person actually interacting with the interviewee is in the best position to interpret his words. I suppose if it doesn't fit your viewpoint, you can just choose to ignore it...


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:34 pm 
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Not to get in the middle of this, but here's an excerpt from an interview by MiLB.com with Polanco as repoirted on Tim's site today-

"Polanco was asked about his injury, and noted that he sprained the ankle during the season, and it got swollen again in Florida. That was a controversial topic this off-season. As I mentioned a few months ago, Polanco only had swelling, and wasn’t seriously injured during instructs as reported. That’s what Polanco told me when I talked to him during instructs. That’s the same thing the Pirates have been saying. And now Polanco is saying it again."

On side not that is great - "Bell notes that his knee is holding up. He’s been working at IMG Academy, working on strengthening his lower half. He’s doing outfield drills, which is a good sign."

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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:37 pm 
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DK didn't say Polanco was "seriously injured." He said Polanco "reinjured" the ankle, which is what happened (i.e., the additional swelling). And he heard this directly from Polanco's interpreter.

So what's the point, exactly?


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:17 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
I will take Williams viewpoint over DK's most anytime. Williams has no axe to grind where it is DK's job to stir up the hornet's nest. JMHO.... 8-) 8-) 8-)

Yeah, but if the DK version is what actually happened, then I am glad he's grinding the axe.

And just to be clear, I personally have no problem with SEALs training, per se. I went to jump school and trained off and on with the Rangers when I was in the military. I think there's a lot of good that can be learned from such team, and personhood, training sessions. I was not worried about our young lads losing three days of bunting training. However, SEALs instructors, special forces instructors, hell, even Basic DIs, get A LOT of instruction in how to tear individuals down in order to build them back up as a team. They are very very good at what they do. My problem was that we seemed to want to channel those instructors, on our own, and that is problematic.


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:27 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
But no one cares to address my perfectly logical, rational point that the person actually interacting with the interviewee is in the best position to interpret his words. I suppose if it doesn't fit your viewpoint, you can just choose to ignore it...
Az Bucco fan wrote:
I will take Williams viewpoint over DK's most anytime. Williams has no axe to grind where it is DK's job to stir up the hornet's nest. JMHO.... 8-) 8-) 8-)


That's how a lot of people here tend to think. And that's fine.

But no one cares to address my perfectly logical, rational point that the person actually interacting with the interviewee is in the best position to interpret his words. I suppose if it doesn't fit your viewpoint, you can just choose to ignore it...


Oh I hear you. I just tend to take much of what he says with a grain of salt and prefer the more middle ground style of williams. A listener can also interpret anything he hears in his own way too. I can see your point. 8-) 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:56 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
DK didn't say Polanco was "seriously injured." He said Polanco "reinjured" the ankle, which is what happened (i.e., the additional swelling). And he heard this directly from Polanco's interpreter.

So what's the point, exactly?



DK quote 10/23/12 - "...the ankle was reinjured. Worse than before." He goes on to say that management is spreading "a bald-faced lie" regarding Polanco only having swelling in October.

Its been a key point of contention between TW and DK.

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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:10 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
DK didn't say Polanco was "seriously injured." He said Polanco "reinjured" the ankle, which is what happened (i.e., the additional swelling). And he heard this directly from Polanco's interpreter.

So what's the point, exactly?


DK quote 10/23/12 - "...the ankle was reinjured. Worse than before." He goes on to say that management is spreading "a bald-faced lie" regarding Polanco only having swelling in October.

Its been a key point of contention between TW and DK.


Wrong. It's a key point of contention between TW and Polanco's interpreter, who was the exact source for that statement in DK's column.

Unless, of course, either you or TW are claiming that DK just made that up. Are you?


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:54 pm 
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Reading just about everything that the two have written on this issue since this story "broke," its my opinion that one has been relatively consistent in his reporting and the other's story has gone through several permutations. That's my $.02.

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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:56 pm 
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Someone ring a bell....... 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Kovacevic v. Williams
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:35 pm 
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Missed you Az. (BTW, sitting at the bar looking at the harp right now...enjoying a Boddy's!)

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