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 Post subject: Swing-and-a-Miss: Miguel Sano
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:51 pm 
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From DK's Twitter, Sulia, and Facebook pages:

Yikes. Cringeworthy stuff from Baseball America's newest scouting report on Miguel Sano. Baseball America: "Sano has enough juice to earn comparisons to Giancarlo Stanton, the only right-handed hitter in the game who matches his 80 raw power on the 20-80 scouting scale. He's strong enough to hit the ball out to any part of any park. Minnesota envisions him as a cleanup hitter." Sano's agent, Rob Plummer, reiterated on my Facebook page last month that all the Pirates needed to do was pay another $500K, and Sano was theirs.

That's a biiiiiiiiiig mistake from NH and his staff. Sucks.


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 Post subject: Re: Swing-and-a-Miss: Miguel Sano
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:38 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
From DK's Twitter, Sulia, and Facebook pages:

Yikes. Cringeworthy stuff from Baseball America's newest scouting report on Miguel Sano. Baseball America: "Sano has enough juice to earn comparisons to Giancarlo Stanton, the only right-handed hitter in the game who matches his 80 raw power on the 20-80 scouting scale. He's strong enough to hit the ball out to any part of any park. Minnesota envisions him as a cleanup hitter." Sano's agent, Rob Plummer, reiterated on my Facebook page last month that all the Pirates needed to do was pay another $500K, and Sano was theirs.

That's a biiiiiiiiiig mistake from NH and his staff. Sucks.


Yep, most likely the biggest mistake they have made underestimating Plummer and trusting Gayo a little too much.

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 Post subject: Re: Swing-and-a-Miss: Miguel Sano
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:14 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
From DK's Twitter, Sulia, and Facebook pages:

Yikes. Cringeworthy stuff from Baseball America's newest scouting report on Miguel Sano. Baseball America: "Sano has enough juice to earn comparisons to Giancarlo Stanton, the only right-handed hitter in the game who matches his 80 raw power on the 20-80 scouting scale. He's strong enough to hit the ball out to any part of any park. Minnesota envisions him as a cleanup hitter." Sano's agent, Rob Plummer, reiterated on my Facebook page last month that all the Pirates needed to do was pay another $500K, and Sano was theirs.

That's a biiiiiiiiiig mistake from NH and his staff. Sucks.


Yep, most likely the biggest mistake they have made underestimating Plummer and trusting Gayo a little too much.

Yea, I don't even like to think about this one. You think the Wieters move hurt....this one may turn out worse. And the solution was just as simple.


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 Post subject: Re: Swing-and-a-Miss: Miguel Sano
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:09 pm 
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I called this a big mistake when it first happened...
I also seem to remember the front office worshipers saying this was no big deal that we missed out on this kid, and that they were glad we saved the money on him! :lol:
Even then this front office was showing its inability to get talented players in the system.

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 Post subject: Re: Swing-and-a-Miss: Miguel Sano
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:20 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
From DK's Twitter, Sulia, and Facebook pages:

Yikes. Cringeworthy stuff from Baseball America's newest scouting report on Miguel Sano. Baseball America: "Sano has enough juice to earn comparisons to Giancarlo Stanton, the only right-handed hitter in the game who matches his 80 raw power on the 20-80 scouting scale. He's strong enough to hit the ball out to any part of any park. Minnesota envisions him as a cleanup hitter." Sano's agent, Rob Plummer, reiterated on my Facebook page last month that all the Pirates needed to do was pay another $500K, and Sano was theirs.

That's a biiiiiiiiiig mistake from NH and his staff. Sucks.


Funny . . . the story as reported at the time never mentioned that another $500K would get the job done. It was reported that Plummer wanted to get more parties involved in the negotiations and that he reneged on his promise to Huntington to let the Pirates have another shot at making an offer. Indeed, if my memory is correct, Plummer later admitted that Huntington had every right to be mad because Plummer didn't do as he represented to Huntington.

If my memory is incorrect, I'd certainly welcome anyone posting a link demonstrating my Alzheimers and refreshing my memory.

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 Post subject: Re: Swing-and-a-Miss: Miguel Sano
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:29 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
I called this a big mistake when it first happened...
I also seem to remember the front office worshipers saying this was no big deal that we missed out on this kid, and that they were glad we saved the money on him! :lol:
Even then this front office was showing its inability to get talented players in the system.


No one was glad we saved money and missed him.

Most defended it because we were led to believe by DK that Plummer was the bad guy and screwed NH over by not allowing him to negotiate. Seems like the whole story changed since then.

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 Post subject: Re: Swing-and-a-Miss: Miguel Sano
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:31 pm 
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DK's story from 9/30/09: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/spo ... ns-359723/

Here is what DK reported:
Pirates offered $2.1M. No other team in the mix. Plummer wants other teams to jump in. Won't negotiate.
Pirates offered $2.6M without getting a demand from Plummer. Pirates bidding against themselves. Plummer still won't negotiate.
Plummer promised Huntington that he'd call him when he was ready to negotiate on a deal for Sano.
Twins offer $3.15M; Plummer accepts. Plummer never called NH in an effort to get an offer higher than the Twins (ask yourself . . . why would an agent do this if he didn't have an agenda)

Here is what DK quoted from Plummer at the time:
"Plummer said early yesterday that, even if the Pirates had come back with more money, he would not have signed with them because of his agreement with Minnesota and because he appreciated how the Twins dealt with him."

So . . is it truly accurate to report that all it would've taken was an additional $500K from the Pirates to sign Sano? Or . . is history being rewritten?

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 Post subject: Re: Swing-and-a-Miss: Miguel Sano
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:36 pm 
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for anyone who might be interested (and lord knows we've kicked this horse enough to be interested) there's a movie about Miguel and Dominican baseball training camps.

Ballplayer: Pelotero

I've seen only the previews...but it looks pretty good. Gayo is also in it. Bobby Valentine is the executive producer...but I'll probably watch it anyway. Anyone with a Netflix (free) or "Vudu" (paid) subscription can get it easily.


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 Post subject: Re: Swing-and-a-Miss: Miguel Sano
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:44 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
DK's story from 9/30/09: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/spo ... ns-359723/

Here is what DK reported:
Pirates offered $2.1M. No other team in the mix. Plummer wants other teams to jump in. Won't negotiate.
Pirates offered $2.6M without getting a demand from Plummer. Pirates bidding against themselves. Plummer still won't negotiate.
Plummer promised Huntington that he'd call him when he was ready to negotiate on a deal for Sano.
Twins offer $3.15M; Plummer accepts. Plummer never called NH in an effort to get an offer higher than the Twins (ask yourself . . . why would an agent do this if he didn't have an agenda)

Here is what DK quoted from Plummer at the time:
"Plummer said early yesterday that, even if the Pirates had come back with more money, he would not have signed with them because of his agreement with Minnesota and because he appreciated how the Twins dealt with him."

So . . is it truly accurate to report that all it would've taken was an additional $500K from the Pirates to sign Sano? Or . . is history being rewritten?

Perhaps it's Kovacevic that has Alzheimer's. Selective, of course. ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Swing-and-a-Miss: Miguel Sano
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:58 pm 
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Willton wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
DK's story from 9/30/09: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/spo ... ns-359723/

Here is what DK reported:
Pirates offered $2.1M. No other team in the mix. Plummer wants other teams to jump in. Won't negotiate.
Pirates offered $2.6M without getting a demand from Plummer. Pirates bidding against themselves. Plummer still won't negotiate.
Plummer promised Huntington that he'd call him when he was ready to negotiate on a deal for Sano.
Twins offer $3.15M; Plummer accepts. Plummer never called NH in an effort to get an offer higher than the Twins (ask yourself . . . why would an agent do this if he didn't have an agenda)

Here is what DK quoted from Plummer at the time:
"Plummer said early yesterday that, even if the Pirates had come back with more money, he would not have signed with them because of his agreement with Minnesota and because he appreciated how the Twins dealt with him."

So . . is it truly accurate to report that all it would've taken was an additional $500K from the Pirates to sign Sano? Or . . is history being rewritten?

Perhaps it's Kovacevic that has Alzheimer's. Selective, of course. ;-)


The stories are not inconsistent. What's left out of the original account -- and what is filled in by other media outlets, including the documentary -- is that Plummer made a demand for north of $3 million from the Pirates. NH and his crew, believing that there was no other team in the mix, went to $2.6 million and tried to stonewall Plummer and Sano at that number. They believed they could save about $500,000 because they were the only game in town. They were wrong.

Once the Twins came a-callin', it's probably true that it wouldn't have mattered if "the Pirates had come back with more money." By that point, Plummer and Sano felt jerked around and the Pirates had been unwilling to meet their demands. But that doesn't change the fact that if the Pirates had met Plummer's and Sano's price at the outset, without trying to save another $500K just because they had a relationship with the kid, then he would be a Pittsburgh Pirate farmhand today.

One must read all of the reporting on the issue to get the full context.

In any event, it is a negotiating failure on the part of NH and his crew to lose a prospect the caliber of Miguel Sano. Especially when they spent time establishing a relationship with the kid and his family. They should have got the deal done. Period.


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 Post subject: Re: Swing-and-a-Miss: Miguel Sano
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:47 pm 
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Like I wrote . . . if you could point me to the articles/reporting to refresh my memory it would be much appreciated. I don't remember a single article written at the time where it was reported that Plummer said "$3.1M and Sano signs" to Huntington and the Pirates. If that was reported, I'm happy to read the article.

It is my opinion now and it was my opinion at the time that NH's failure at the time was not recognizing Plummer to be what he turned out to be - a spiteful control freak.

And, say what you will after-the-fact, I'm far from convinced that Plummer was going to allow Sano to sign with the Pirates or that Sano wanted to sign with the Pirates. The fact that he accepted the Twins' offer without contacting the Pirates to see if they would offer more likely resulted in his client leaving money on the table. The only way that would happen is if: (1) Plummer was being spiteful and put his personal feelings above Sano's financial interests or (2) Sano didn't want to sign with the Pirates even if more money was offered.

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 Post subject: Re: Swing-and-a-Miss: Miguel Sano
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:43 am 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
From DK's Twitter, Sulia, and Facebook pages:

Yikes. Cringeworthy stuff from Baseball America's newest scouting report on Miguel Sano. Baseball America: "Sano has enough juice to earn comparisons to Giancarlo Stanton, the only right-handed hitter in the game who matches his 80 raw power on the 20-80 scouting scale. He's strong enough to hit the ball out to any part of any park. Minnesota envisions him as a cleanup hitter." Sano's agent, Rob Plummer, reiterated on my Facebook page last month that all the Pirates needed to do was pay another $500K, and Sano was theirs.

That's a biiiiiiiiiig mistake from NH and his staff. Sucks.


Yep, most likely the biggest mistake they have made underestimating Plummer and trusting Gayo a little too much.

They're biggest mistake was trusting Plummer too much. He's changed his story on why Sano didn't sign multiple times.

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 Post subject: Re: Swing-and-a-Miss: Miguel Sano
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:44 am 
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No. 9 wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
From DK's Twitter, Sulia, and Facebook pages:

Yikes. Cringeworthy stuff from Baseball America's newest scouting report on Miguel Sano. Baseball America: "Sano has enough juice to earn comparisons to Giancarlo Stanton, the only right-handed hitter in the game who matches his 80 raw power on the 20-80 scouting scale. He's strong enough to hit the ball out to any part of any park. Minnesota envisions him as a cleanup hitter." Sano's agent, Rob Plummer, reiterated on my Facebook page last month that all the Pirates needed to do was pay another $500K, and Sano was theirs.

That's a biiiiiiiiiig mistake from NH and his staff. Sucks.


Funny . . . the story as reported at the time never mentioned that another $500K would get the job done. It was reported that Plummer wanted to get more parties involved in the negotiations and that he reneged on his promise to Huntington to let the Pirates have another shot at making an offer. Indeed, if my memory is correct, Plummer later admitted that Huntington had every right to be mad because Plummer didn't do as he represented to Huntington.

If my memory is incorrect, I'd certainly welcome anyone posting a link demonstrating my Alzheimers and refreshing my memory.

You are absolutely right, No. 9. This guy keeps changing his story.

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 Post subject: Re: Swing-and-a-Miss: Miguel Sano
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:50 am 
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Ryann wrote:
I also seem to remember the front office worshipers saying this was no big deal that we missed out on this kid, and that they were glad we saved the money on him! :lol:

Nobody made a comment remotely close to that. NOBODY.

You are making this up. Please cite ONE UPPMB contributor who wrote that the failure to sign Sano was "no big deal" and a "good thing" since it "saved money."

When you make that allegation, the person who supposedly made the statement can then correct your blatant misrepresentation.


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 Post subject: Re: Swing-and-a-Miss: Miguel Sano
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:47 am 
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No. 9 wrote:
Like I wrote . . . if you could point me to the articles/reporting to refresh my memory it would be much appreciated. I don't remember a single article written at the time where it was reported that Plummer said "$3.1M and Sano signs" to Huntington and the Pirates. If that was reported, I'm happy to read the article.

It is my opinion now and it was my opinion at the time that NH's failure at the time was not recognizing Plummer to be what he turned out to be - a spiteful control freak.

And, say what you will after-the-fact, I'm far from convinced that Plummer was going to allow Sano to sign with the Pirates or that Sano wanted to sign with the Pirates. The fact that he accepted the Twins' offer without contacting the Pirates to see if they would offer more likely resulted in his client leaving money on the table. The only way that would happen is if: (1) Plummer was being spiteful and put his personal feelings above Sano's financial interests or (2) Sano didn't want to sign with the Pirates even if more money was offered.


Part of being successful in ANY business involves working with people who could be described as "spiteful control freaks." To be successful, you need to be able to work with those people to achieve your own goals. The failure of NH and his staff was evident -- they did not accurately read the situation, they did not identify who was making the primary decisions, and they did not take into account the possibility of another team swooping in with a superior offer.

Blame Plummer all you want, my friend. In the end, the responsibility for not signing Sano lies with NH and his staff, who have to work with difficult agents all the time...


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 Post subject: Re: Swing-and-a-Miss: Miguel Sano
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:41 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Part of being successful in ANY business involves working with people who could be described as "spiteful control freaks." To be successful, you need to be able to work with those people to achieve your own goals. The failure of NH and his staff was evident -- they did not accurately read the situation, they did not identify who was making the primary decisions, and they did not take into account the possibility of another team swooping in with a superior offer.

Blame Plummer all you want, my friend. In the end, the responsibility for not signing Sano lies with NH and his staff, who have to work with difficult agents all the time...


I laid blame at Huntington and Gayo's feet back in 2009 and I've seen nothing to change my opinion. However, my issue with Huntington and Gayo rests solely with their failure to recognize the dynamics of who was sitting "across the table" from them. Unless and until I read that Plummer told them specifically "Pay $3.15M and Sano will sign," I'm not going to bash them for not paying the amount that Sano ultimately signed for. Huntington and Gayo apparently didn't trust Plummer (and it appears that they were correct in this assessment) but should have figured out a way to play in his sandbox to best enhance their chances to sign Sano.

I also blame Plummer. The guy's story has been all over the place since announcing Sano's signing. He "live chatted" on DK's old blog on the PPG. At that time, he admitted that NH should be mad at him because he didn't honor his word and that he'd ultimately have to apologize to NH about the dealings. He likely put his animosity of the "negotiations" (and I use that word very loosely) ahead of Sano getting the most money possible. Or . . . if Sano didn't want to sign with the Pirates . . . then this is much ado about nothing.

Bottom line? There is criticism to be levied but the notion that "the Pirates could have had Sano if they simply would have upped their offer to $3.15M" seems to be revisionist history.

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 Post subject: Re: Swing-and-a-Miss: Miguel Sano
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Bottom line? There is criticism to be levied but the notion that "the Pirates could have had Sano if they simply would have upped their offer to $3.15M" seems to be revisionist history.


I believe that depends on when the Pirates would have upped the offer. In the end, Sano took the highest offer he got, which came from the Twins.


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 Post subject: Re: Swing-and-a-Miss: Miguel Sano
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:19 pm 
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In any event, it is a negotiating failure on the part of NH and his crew to lose a prospect the caliber of Miguel Sano. Especially when they spent time establishing a relationship with the kid and his family. They should have got the deal done. Period.


It cannot be a negotiation failure when the agent refuses to negotiate. If Plummer would have sought a counter-offer from the Pirates, the Pirates would have payed the amount. So this strawman argument you are presenting leaves out the dishonest dealings of the agent. Were the Pirates over confident in their dealings? Maybe. But an agent for a FA like this would do better to get the most money for his player and in this case he chose to leave a possible suitor out of the negotiations because his feathers were ruffled. Then, he plays to the yinzer crowd with these ridiculous statements. The kid is stil ONLY a prospect. When he is up at the MLB level crushing then I'll feel like we really missed out. Until then, he's an arm blowout, knee blowout away from being an interesting footnote in baseball history. And there are definitely a fair share of those.


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 Post subject: Re: Swing-and-a-Miss: Miguel Sano
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:00 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
Bottom line? There is criticism to be levied but the notion that "the Pirates could have had Sano if they simply would have upped their offer to $3.15M" seems to be revisionist history.


I believe that depends on when the Pirates would have upped the offer. In the end, Sano took the highest offer he got, which came from the Twins.


The next person who provides me with a valid reason why an agent would - (1) reject a $2.6M offer to sign Sano so that he can get more teams into the bidding; (2) obtain an offer of $3.15M from one team to sign Sano; (3) knows that the initial team has bid against itself once for Sano and (4) promised that team he'd let them know when he was ready to start negotiating and then (5) advise his client to take the $3.15M without trying to get more - will be the first person to articulate a valid reason to me.

Maybe Sano loved the Twins. Maybe he hated the Pirates. Maybe there was something magical about $3.15M that warmed the cockles of his heart and he didn't want to sign for more money.

I'll go to my deathbed blaming NH not "reading" Plummer and Plummer being a spiteful douche bag that likely left money on the table to spite NH and to steer Sano to the Twins (I thought someone wrote that Plummer had connections in Twins' front office - can't remember specifically).

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 Post subject: Re: Swing-and-a-Miss: Miguel Sano
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:07 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
Bottom line? There is criticism to be levied but the notion that "the Pirates could have had Sano if they simply would have upped their offer to $3.15M" seems to be revisionist history.


I believe that depends on when the Pirates would have upped the offer. In the end, Sano took the highest offer he got, which came from the Twins.


The next person who provides me with a valid reason why an agent would - (1) reject a $2.6M offer to sign Sano so that he can get more teams into the bidding; (2) obtain an offer of $3.15M from one team to sign Sano; (3) knows that the initial team has bid against itself once for Sano and (4) promised that team he'd let them know when he was ready to start negotiating and then (5) advise his client to take the $3.15M without trying to get more - will be the first person to articulate a valid reason to me.

Maybe Sano loved the Twins. Maybe he hated the Pirates. Maybe there was something magical about $3.15M that warmed the cockles of his heart and he didn't want to sign for more money.

I'll go to my deathbed blaming NH not "reading" Plummer and Plummer being a spiteful douche bag that likely left money on the table to spite NH and to steer Sano to the Twins (I thought someone wrote that Plummer had connections in Twins' front office - can't remember specifically).

Dejan wrote at the time that Plummer was close friends with somebody in the Twins front office. At the time it looked to me as if the agent was steering Sano to the Twins regardless of who offered what. I wonder what his kickback was.

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