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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:33 pm 
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But it was not an all encompassing plan as evidenced by his ignore button being set on Latin America.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:04 am 
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Willton wrote:
omgardd wrote:
I've learned quickly on here that any opinions that do not support the Pittsburgh Pirates baseball club or reflect even the slightest ounce of negativity towards the club are treated with contempt and ridicule by such holier than thou posters like Wilton.

But if you express an opinion that wholly lacks any support in logic or reason, expect me to fire a cannon through your credibility.




Feel free to state which of my opinions you find illogical or unreasonable.

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:12 am 
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Argentum wrote:
Elmer wrote:
omgrrd, I couldn't have said it better myself. This board is a haven for apologists. I can deal with that, I just hate the "holier than though" attitude you speak of that some hold.


You guys should have been here during the Littleyield years. None of the people you accuse of being apologists were in fact apologists. As a matter of fact, most of the people you accuse of being an apologist were staunch anti-Littlefield.

Heck I started posting on the old, old board when DL took over for Cam. I remember the "Cam Must Go" website fondly. If I recall correctly, DL was also given a grace period.

I believe you and Omgrrd started posting when Huntington took over. Most of the people who hated DL are willing to give NH a chance. I think you're confusing our reluctance to chastise NH so early in the game with apologizing.

Give it some time, if the current office screws-up as much as the past two, you'll get all the bitching and moaning you crave......


I don't crave bitching and moaning, I crave winning baseball. I haven't been given any reason to be anything but pessimistic about this team since 1993. 10 years ago, I would've happily given NH the benefit of the doubt, but this is a team of empty promises, I'll believe it when I see it.

But like an abused spouse, I'll be there on opening day.

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:41 am 
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If management does what you think they should in development, why should one complain? Are they perfect? No, but they are headed in the right direction. Again, look at the model that's been developed by other teams in the Pirate class of teams. But it takes time to do it the right way.

My guess is that we won't be patient enough to see it come to fruition, but for now it looks like they are beginning to acquire some real talented young kids. There is hope.

As far as the pocketing of money, we just don't know about it. I would add, that as far as paying down debt, it's not all bad news as that should encourage the team to stay in Pittsburgh. A team in this much of a mess needs so much, that it will just take some years to over come.

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:58 am 
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I am so tired of being called an apologist. Just because I like the plan that is in place, and I like the progress the Pirates have made, and I like the direction we are headed, that makes me an apologist? Forgive me for not jumping on the negative train 1 year removed from the FC - NH hiring.

Another thing that I am so tired of hearing is that Nutting is a cheapskate, if you will actually take the time and read the entire 3 part series on international scouting you will see that once Nutting found out that DL had abandoned Latin America, he figuratively took him by the ear down to the Dominican Republic and inspected the site for himself. He subsequently fired DL later in the season and Dejan seems to think that that was the key component to the firing. And oh, did I mention Nutting dumped a ton of money into building a new facility and increased Gayo's budget from $700,000 to $2 Million. Such a freakin cheapskate.

Just because the Pirates don't go out and spend $30 Million dollars on past their prime FA's, Nutting shouldn't be labeled as a cheapskate.

Let me make this clear, in fact I will highlight it and use capital letters for all to see.
NUTTING OWNS THE PIRATES TO MAKE MONEY aka TURN A PROFIT

Any sound business owner needs to turn a profit or for some ungodly reason the business goes away.

So in conclusion... don't freakin worry about where the luxery tax money is going, give the PBC front office a chance to make things happen. If you as a fan are thinking that a FA here or a FA there is all-of-a-sudden going to turn us into a contendor, your not being honest with yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:07 am 
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omgardd wrote:
Willton wrote:
omgardd wrote:
I've learned quickly on here that any opinions that do not support the Pittsburgh Pirates baseball club or reflect even the slightest ounce of negativity towards the club are treated with contempt and ridicule by such holier than thou posters like Wilton.

But if you express an opinion that wholly lacks any support in logic or reason, expect me to fire a cannon through your credibility.


Feel free to state which of my opinions you find illogical or unreasonable.

For starters, from August of this year:
omgardd wrote:
All that optimism that everybody had last week, including myself, after the Alvarez signing has quickly worn off when its apparent that this team has basically quit. Swept by the Brewers, about to be swept by the Cubs, lose 3 of 4 to the Mets 2 of 3 to the Phillies, 2 of 3 to the stinking Reds. They have no heart. Nice job guys, can't wait for next year.
(emphasis mine)
viewtopic.php?p=9847#p9847

Then, when we asked you to provide some actual evidence of this claim, you said:
omgardd wrote:
Ok, since I can't very well go to youtube and provide you evidence of say, Andy LaRoche not running out a ground ball, and this team doesn't exactly capture my attention over the past month and a half enough to scrutinize every small detail that you're asking for, I'll settle and call it an assumption, sue me.
(emphasis mine)
viewtopic.php?p=10640#p10640

I rest my case.

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:28 am 
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Hey Wilton... you sound like a lawyer or something... :D


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:39 am 
Piratefan13 wrote:
I am so tired of being called an apologist. Just because I like the plan that is in place, and I like the progress the Pirates have made, and I like the direction we are headed, that makes me an apologist? Forgive me for not jumping on the negative train 1 year removed from the FC - NH hiring.

Another thing that I am so tired of hearing is that Nutting is a cheapskate, if you will actually take the time and read the entire 3 part series on international scouting you will see that once Nutting found out that DL had abandoned Latin America, he figuratively took him by the ear down to the Dominican Republic and inspected the site for himself. He subsequently fired DL later in the season and Dejan seems to think that that was the key component to the firing. And oh, did I mention Nutting dumped a ton of money into building a new facility and increased Gayo's budget from $700,000 to $2 Million. Such a freakin cheapskate.

Just because the Pirates don't go out and spend $30 Million dollars on past their prime FA's, Nutting shouldn't be labeled as a cheapskate.

Let me make this clear, in fact I will highlight it and use capital letters for all to see.
NUTTING OWNS THE PIRATES TO MAKE MONEY aka TURN A PROFIT

Any sound business owner needs to turn a profit or for some ungodly reason the business goes away.

So in conclusion... don't freakin worry about where the luxery tax money is going, give the PBC front office a chance to make things happen. If you as a fan are thinking that a FA here or a FA there is all-of-a-sudden going to turn us into a contendor, your not being honest with yourself.


I don't think one who supports or believes in the current plan is an apologist. One who never criticizes current management for anything is an apologist. I don't believe you fall into that category.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:44 am 
omgardd wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's going into scouting and development and paying down debts incurred by the construction of PNC Park (if this is actually true as rumors speculate that it is, it's pretty much on par with pocketing the money, luxury tax money is meant to be used on the team and not for the owner to pay off his debts.)


Great point, omgardd. "Pocketing the money" is loosely defined.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:23 pm 
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Feel free to state which of my opinions you find illogical or unreasonable.[/quote]
For starters, from August of this year:
omgardd wrote:
All that optimism that everybody had last week, including myself, after the Alvarez signing has quickly worn off when its apparent that this team has basically quit. Swept by the Brewers, about to be swept by the Cubs, lose 3 of 4 to the Mets 2 of 3 to the Phillies, 2 of 3 to the stinking Reds. They have no heart. Nice job guys, can't wait for next year.
(emphasis mine)
viewtopic.php?p=9847#p9847

Then, when we asked you to provide some actual evidence of this claim, you said:
omgardd wrote:
Ok, since I can't very well go to youtube and provide you evidence of say, Andy LaRoche not running out a ground ball, and this team doesn't exactly capture my attention over the past month and a half enough to scrutinize every small detail that you're asking for, I'll settle and call it an assumption, sue me.
(emphasis mine)
viewtopic.php?p=10640#p10640

I rest my case.[/quote]

So tell me how its wholly illogical to assume (yes assume) that after the Bay and Nady trades the Pirates didn't play with the same fire as they did earlier in the season and that several players may have packed it in? Especially when that logical assumption was pretty much backed up by Doug Mienkiewicz and the Post-Gazette.

Unless you regularly speak to John Russell, Bob Nutting, Frank Coonelly or Neal Huntington on a regular basis Wilton, you're going to have a hard time finding 100% concrete facts on everything like you appear to be so found of. You can only see what they show you, read what they give you and hear what they want you to hear. Sometimes you have to say if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck, and draw your own conclusions. In this case, since it's not a court of law, I think logical assumption works just fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:55 pm 
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omgardd wrote:
Willton wrote:
For starters, from August of this year:
omgardd wrote:
All that optimism that everybody had last week, including myself, after the Alvarez signing has quickly worn off when its apparent that this team has basically quit. Swept by the Brewers, about to be swept by the Cubs, lose 3 of 4 to the Mets 2 of 3 to the Phillies, 2 of 3 to the stinking Reds. They have no heart. Nice job guys, can't wait for next year.
(emphasis mine)
viewtopic.php?p=9847#p9847

Then, when we asked you to provide some actual evidence of this claim, you said:
omgardd wrote:
Ok, since I can't very well go to youtube and provide you evidence of say, Andy LaRoche not running out a ground ball, and this team doesn't exactly capture my attention over the past month and a half enough to scrutinize every small detail that you're asking for, I'll settle and call it an assumption, sue me.
(emphasis mine)
viewtopic.php?p=10640#p10640

I rest my case.


So tell me how its wholly illogical to assume (yes assume) that after the Bay and Nady trades the Pirates didn't play with the same fire as they did earlier in the season and that several players may have packed it in? Especially when that logical assumption was pretty much backed up by Doug Mienkiewicz and the Post-Gazette.

Because there was no evidence to that effect. The only logical reason for quitting would be if they had nothing to play for, and it was clearly evident that the Pirates were playing only for pride or future employment by the beginning of July, as they were no less than 9 games behind the leader the entire month of June. Yet no one accused them of quitting then because there was no evidence of them quitting then. So why is it safe to assume that the team had quit in August when their status as bottom-feeders did not change from July to August?

Look at your quote above. You were basing your opinion on the fact that the Pirates were getting swept or nearly swept often without two of their best hitters. It had nothing to do with any quote from Minky and had everything to do with them losing many games. That's not evidence of quitting; that's evidence of being worse than before. Evidence of quitting involves displays of going through the motions and exhibiting apathy. You put forth none of this; all you did was point to the team's recent W/L record.

omgardd wrote:
Unless you regularly speak to John Russell, Bob Nutting, Frank Coonelly or Neal Huntington on a regular basis Wilton, you're going to have a hard time finding 100% concrete facts on everything like you appear to be so found of. You can only see what they show you, read what they give you and hear what they want you to hear. Sometimes you have to say if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck, and draw your own conclusions. In this case, since it's not a court of law, I think logical assumption works just fine.

Then show us evidence of it walking and talking like a duck! That's all I'm asking for. You did not do that. After all the poppy-cock about you living so damn close to PNC Park and how I can't know jack because I live in Jersey City and don't watch the games, all you did was point to the box scores, which is something one can do from Belgium. I'm sorry, but that line of logic deserves a healthy dose of derision and lampooning.

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:56 pm 
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I dont believe in any way the team mailed it in after the trades...

You want proof go look at Nate McClouth's stitches above his eye diving for a fly ball with his sunglasses on...

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08252/910411-63.stm


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:17 pm 
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It would be easy to say that they quit. I watched about 110 games this year and really didn't see any glaring signs of cashing it in. Anyone who thinks they don't play for pride is sorely mistaken. Does anyone think they really want to suck?


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:38 pm 
omgardd wrote:
Unless you regularly speak to John Russell, Bob Nutting, Frank Coonelly or Neal Huntington on a regular basis Wilton, you're going to have a hard time finding 100% concrete facts on everything like you appear to be so found of. You can only see what they show you, read what they give you and hear what they want you to hear. Sometimes you have to say if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck, and draw your own conclusions. In this case, since it's not a court of law, I think logical assumption works just fine.


Exactly, omgardd. There is no way to know everything. When it suits certain posters though, they insist on "proof" of every opinion, when the opinion goes against what they believe. The thing is, if you had "proof" on every opinion, it would no longer be an opinion but a fact and not worth posting about.

I'm with you. I know revenue sharing has come in for years. I haven't seen much increase in payroll or, until last year, invested in the minor league system. I then have to assume it went into ownerships pocket (be it the stadium over runs or not is irrelevant to me, because I do not believe the money was intended for anything but payroll).

Do I have proof of this? No. Nor do opponents have proof it didn't happen. I respect that opinion and I acknowledge that they may be right. I just don't happen to agree. I have no problem with posters who don't side with me on this. I do think it's laughable for those who don't even consider it a possibility.

The more I think about it, though, it's not worth arguing because you can't prove it. I believe what I believe.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:01 pm 
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If it looks like a shtt team, plays like a shtt team, then its a shtt team.(aka the Pgh Pirates)

If the owners make 15 to 20 million and the team sucks year after year, winning is not their priority

If you support a shtt team and dont hold the owner accountable enjoy the shtt :D :D

I too think logical assumption works just fine

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:12 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
[
Exactly, omgardd. There is no way to know everything. When it suits certain posters though, they insist on "proof" of every opinion, when the opinion goes against what they believe. The thing is, if you had "proof" on every opinion, it would no longer be an opinion but a fact and not worth posting about.



The more I think about it, though, it's not worth arguing because you can't prove it. I believe what I believe.


There is a much larger difference between "opinion" and "fact". But Elmer, opinions should be based on facts, or at least have some sort of evidence in support of them. If one's opinion is truly valid, then they would easily be able to support their opinion with evidence (aka facts), as opposed to being (acting) offended and resorting to ad hominem arguments. I really don't get why people are getting pissed when they are asked to show some support for their opinions, and further, when they fail to provide support, get upset when people slam said opinions.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:46 pm 
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BBF wrote:
...opinions should be based on facts, or at least have some sort of evidence in support of them....


My lord, what am I to do if I have to have facts? :twisted:

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:26 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
omgardd wrote:
Unless you regularly speak to John Russell, Bob Nutting, Frank Coonelly or Neal Huntington on a regular basis Wilton, you're going to have a hard time finding 100% concrete facts on everything like you appear to be so found of. You can only see what they show you, read what they give you and hear what they want you to hear. Sometimes you have to say if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck, and draw your own conclusions. In this case, since it's not a court of law, I think logical assumption works just fine.


Exactly, omgardd. There is no way to know everything. When it suits certain posters though, they insist on "proof" of every opinion, when the opinion goes against what they believe. The thing is, if you had "proof" on every opinion, it would no longer be an opinion but a fact and not worth posting about.

I'm with you. I know revenue sharing has come in for years. I haven't seen much increase in payroll or, until last year, invested in the minor league system. I then have to assume it went into ownerships pocket (be it the stadium over runs or not is irrelevant to me, because I do not believe the money was intended for anything but payroll).

Do I have proof of this? No. Nor do opponents have proof it didn't happen. I respect that opinion and I acknowledge that they may be right. I just don't happen to agree. I have no problem with posters who don't side with me on this. I do think it's laughable for those who don't even consider it a possibility.

The more I think about it, though, it's not worth arguing because you can't prove it. I believe what I believe.



Its fine to have an opinion that is different from others, but most of the others have given a reason to SUPPORT their opinions...Not just bellyached, bitched and moaned that no one agrees with their opinion because thats their opinion...

I have lots of opinions of people, and situations and such, and I have a reason to support my opinion...All, atleast what I'd like to see, is give a reason to support your opinion...

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:49 pm 
It's a fact that the Pirates have gotten revenue sharing money. It's a fact payroll remains near the bottom of the league. It's pretty apparent that before this year little money went to development.

Is it a smoking gun ... no. But some of you guys act like the opinion is based on nothing. Most people (away from this board) hold this opinion. You may not agree, but it's certainly a reasonable opinion to hold.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:07 pm 
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I gave you several scenarios as to where the money could go, and asked if you knew of any.

All were lots more than just "pocketing" the change.

I'll ask the basic one again. Are you happy, or not, that the Prince spent the extra dollars on PNC to make it the best in baseball? Would you rather have a version of Heinz field?

Is paying down the debt incurred putting in the extra's and paying the overages, "pocketing" monies, or is it legit?

ZM

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