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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:12 am 
Az Bucco fan wrote:
Signing Jeremy Beernutz qualifies as mis management of funds. You think?


Hell yeah. One of the worst moves the team has made (and that's saying something).


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:02 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
Signing Jeremy Beernutz qualifies as mis management of funds. You think?


Yes, but I fail to see how spending money qualifies as "pocketing the money". No one is arguing mismanagement, I am asking how we know they are taking luxury tax, or shared revenue, and pocketing the money.

No one making the claim can back it up though.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:39 pm 
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I never said pocketing the money was the issue, just stated that this was one example of mismanagement.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:41 pm 
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Oh, I know you didn't Az, and my posts are directed at those that do, and do, and do, and do.. and do...

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:59 pm 
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Sorry......................................my error.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:56 pm 
ZelieMike wrote:
Az Bucco fan wrote:
Signing Jeremy Beernutz qualifies as mis management of funds. You think?


Yes, but I fail to see how spending money qualifies as "pocketing the money". No one is arguing mismanagement, I am asking how we know they are taking luxury tax, or shared revenue, and pocketing the money.

No one making the claim can back it up though.


ZM


I don't "know" for a fact. I don't think it's possible to know this for a fact without the books being open. I don't think that precludes me from my right to have an opinion on it.

Opinions, by their nature, can't really be "proven" because then they would be facts. If the books revealed one way or the other that the tax money was or wasn't pocketed, we couldn't have the debate.

I respect that you don't believe ownership is pocketing the money. I happen to disagree. I believe this to be the case, but I don't (and didn't) claim to "know" that's what's going on. It's my OPINION.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:58 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
I don't "know" for a fact. I don't think it's possible to know this for a fact without the books being open. I don't think that precludes me from my right to have an opinion on it.

No, but it can preclude you from having a good, well-informed opinion on the subject, and it certainly gives us the opportunity to explain why your opinion is neither good nor well-informed.

Elmer wrote:
Opinions, by their nature, can't really be "proven" because then they would be facts. If the books revealed one way or the other that the tax money was or wasn't pocketed, we couldn't have the debate.

It's hard to have a debate, however, without any facts. Debates don't tend to last very long if they begin and end with "This is what I believe," and there's nothing in between. If you want to have an actual debate, you should use facts to support your opinion and/or criticize someone else's. Opinions that are not based in fact add little to the discussion.

Elmer wrote:
I respect that you don't believe ownership is pocketing the money. I happen to disagree. I believe this to be the case, but I don't (and didn't) claim to "know" that's what's going on. It's my OPINION.

Well, your opinion is certainly not gold-plated, and as adults, we should have license to criticize your opinion if we believe that it has no merit.

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:28 pm 
So I don't know that they're pocketing money any more than others know that they're not. They're allowed to have opinions on the matter and I'm not? That's comical.

I'm simply not having these debates with you. What part of "I don't talk baseball with you" did you not understand? I'm not going to answer your idiotic posts dude. Get over yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:24 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
So I don't know that they're pocketing money any more than others know that they're not. They're allowed to have opinions on the matter and I'm not? That's comical.

Did I say that? No. What I did say is that if you don't have at least have some facts, direct or circumstantial, that would back up your opinion, then your opinion is worthless. If you want your opinions to be taken seriously, you should back them up with something. Otherwise you should fully expect criticism to rain down upon your unfounded opinions, much like ZM was doing.

Elmer wrote:
I'm simply not having these debates with you. What part of "I don't talk baseball with you" did you not understand? I'm not going to answer your idiotic posts dude. Get over yourself.

I don't care if you don't answer my posts. Just realize that I don't have to stop replying to yours. Much like you, I'm merely stating my opinion when I do so.

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:23 am 
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Elmer wrote:
So I don't know that they're pocketing money any more than others know that they're not. They're allowed to have opinions on the matter and I'm not? That's comical.

I'm simply not having these debates with you. What part of "I don't talk baseball with you" did you not understand? I'm not going to answer your idiotic posts dude. Get over yourself.



I've learned quickly on here that any opinions that do not support the Pittsburgh Pirates baseball club or reflect even the slightest ounce of negativity towards the club are treated with contempt and ridicule by such holier than thou posters like Wilton. As far as the topic goes, I don't 100% know for sure where the money is going either, I don't think anybody besides the Nuttings and Kevin McClatchy can say for sure.
I'm pretty sure it's going into scouting and development and paying down debts incurred by the construction of PNC Park (if this is actually true as rumors speculate that it is, it's pretty much on par with pocketing the money, luxury tax money is meant to be used on the team and not for the owner to pay off his debts.) I don't agree that we should be spending that money on ML free agents just to spend it, that's how you end up with Burnitzes and Randas, however hopefully we will spend that money in the future to keep our nucleus players like Tabata, McCutchen and Alvarez long term, if that means signing them to fat contracts, so be it.

These are only just the opinions of a lowly commoner Pirate fan, hopefully I didn't sound altogether foolish.

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:37 pm 
omgardd wrote:
Elmer wrote:
So I don't know that they're pocketing money any more than others know that they're not. They're allowed to have opinions on the matter and I'm not? That's comical.

I'm simply not having these debates with you. What part of "I don't talk baseball with you" did you not understand? I'm not going to answer your idiotic posts dude. Get over yourself.



I've learned quickly on here that any opinions that do not support the Pittsburgh Pirates baseball club or reflect even the slightest ounce of negativity towards the club are treated with contempt and ridicule by such holier than thou posters like Wilton. As far as the topic goes, I don't 100% know for sure where the money is going either, I don't think anybody besides the Nuttings and Kevin McClatchy can say for sure.
I'm pretty sure it's going into scouting and development and paying down debts incurred by the construction of PNC Park (if this is actually true as rumors speculate that it is, it's pretty much on par with pocketing the money, luxury tax money is meant to be used on the team and not for the owner to pay off his debts.) I don't agree that we should be spending that money on ML free agents just to spend it, that's how you end up with Burnitzes and Randas, however hopefully we will spend that money in the future to keep our nucleus players like Tabata, McCutchen and Alvarez long term, if that means signing them to fat contracts, so be it.

These are only just the opinions of a lowly commoner Pirate fan, hopefully I didn't sound altogether foolish.


omgrrd, I couldn't have said it better myself. This board is a haven for apologists. I can deal with that, I just hate the "holier than though" attitude you speak of that some hold.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:54 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
omgrrd, I couldn't have said it better myself. This board is a haven for apologists. I can deal with that, I just hate the "holier than though" attitude you speak of that some hold.


You guys should have been here during the Littleyield years. None of the people you accuse of being apologists were in fact apologists. As a matter of fact, most of the people you accuse of being an apologist were staunch anti-Littlefield.

Heck I started posting on the old, old board when DL took over for Cam. I remember the "Cam Must Go" website fondly. If I recall correctly, DL was also given a grace period.

I believe you and Omgrrd started posting when Huntington took over. Most of the people who hated DL are willing to give NH a chance. I think you're confusing our reluctance to chastise NH so early in the game with apologizing.

Give it some time, if the current office screws-up as much as the past two, you'll get all the bitching and moaning you crave......


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:00 pm 
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Argentum wrote:

Heck I started posting on the old, old board when DL took over for Cam. I remember the "Cam Must Go" website fondly. If I recall correctly, DL was also given a grace period.


Ha...wasn't it Eric who started the Cam Must Go site? That seems to be my memory. And I would say that the atmosphere of this board was much more anti-DL than it ever was for the Camoron.

Honestly, I get a kick out of people referring to some on this board as apologists. Apparently, "apologist" has been redefined to mean "someone who expects opinions to be formed on the basis of known facts as opposed to wild, unsubstantiated conjectures".

Most of the people throwing around the "apologist" term are also those who would probably still have Giles, Kendall, and Benson on the roster if it was up to them, since you never ever want to trade away a popular player. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:07 pm 
BBF wrote:
Argentum wrote:

Heck I started posting on the old, old board when DL took over for Cam. I remember the "Cam Must Go" website fondly. If I recall correctly, DL was also given a grace period.


Ha...wasn't it Eric who started the Cam Must Go site? That seems to be my memory. And I would say that the atmosphere of this board was much more anti-DL than it ever was for the Camoron.

Honestly, I get a kick out of people referring to some on this board as apologists. Apparently, "apologist" has been redefined to mean "someone who expects opinions to be formed on the basis of known facts as opposed to wild, unsubstantiated conjectures".

Most of the people throwing around the "apologist" term are also those who would probably still have Giles, Kendall, and Benson on the roster if it was up to them, since you never ever want to trade away a popular player. :roll:


I, in no way, wanted Giles, Kendall or Benson to be retained.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:21 pm 
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omgardd wrote:
I've learned quickly on here that any opinions that do not support the Pittsburgh Pirates baseball club or reflect even the slightest ounce of negativity towards the club are treated with contempt and ridicule by such holier than thou posters like Wilton.

Wrong. I have no problem with negative opinions, as long as they have a basis. Opinions that lack substance will be ridiculed by me and others. If you have an opinion that has some foundation in fact (and not just some self-serving testimony like "Oh, I seen it!"), I'll respect that. But if you express an opinion that wholly lacks any support in logic or reason, expect me to fire a cannon through your credibility.

Everybody's opinion here is fair game for criticism. If you're afraid of having your opinion attacked, then don't express it here. Otherwise, sack up and join the discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:01 pm 
Willton wrote:
omgardd wrote:
I've learned quickly on here that any opinions that do not support the Pittsburgh Pirates baseball club or reflect even the slightest ounce of negativity towards the club are treated with contempt and ridicule by such holier than thou posters like Wilton.

Wrong. I have no problem with negative opinions, as long as they have a basis. Opinions that lack substance will be ridiculed by me and others. If you have an opinion that has some foundation in fact (and not just some self-serving testimony like "Oh, I seen it!"), I'll respect that. But if you express an opinion that wholly lacks any support in logic or reason, expect me to fire a cannon through your credibility.

Everybody's opinion here is fair game for criticism. If you're afraid of having your opinion attacked, then don't express it here. Otherwise, sack up and join the discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:09 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Ha...wasn't it Eric who started the Cam Must Go site? That seems to be my memory. And I would say that the atmosphere of this board was much more anti-DL than it ever was for the Camoron.


I'm almost certain it was a board member who got that up and running. Don't remember who though.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:53 pm 
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I don't know, we thought Camarones pretty much sucked if I rmember correctly.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:30 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
I don't know, we thought Camarones pretty much sucked if I rmember correctly.


Oh definitely. I don't think anyone LIKED Camoron. I just think the hatred and vitriol directed towards DL was much more robust...maybe that is just the effects of time on my memory though.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:43 pm 
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I think it was because it was more disappointing. He had a plan, a good one at that, but couldn't execute it because he couldn't evaluate talent. That's incompetence at the highest level and was rewarded with the board's wrath.

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