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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:46 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
The last year or so, it MIGHT be going into the minor league system. That doesn't explain where it's gone for the previous decade or so. I'd like to see the rule adjusted so that luxury tax money has to go into the major league roster.

Yes, because we all know how much better off the Pirates would be if they would just sign the Burnitzes of the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:33 pm 
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I'm not arguing for a requirement to spend the money on the major-league team, but there is a serious flaw in your argument Sisyphus.

You are assuming that a management team would spend the money better on the minor league system than they would on the major league system. The same GM who couldn't recognize and evaluate major league talent also was terrible with most of his draft picks....the same guy who brought us Burnitz brought us Bullington and Van Ben Suckin.

Therefore, by extension, if you trust that the existing GM will be better at drafting, you should be able to assume that he is better at picking major league talent, as well. He should also be smart enough to put money in the major league system by investing in good young players like Doumit and McClouth and Mahalom. You don't have to bring in any new players to invest in your major league team.

Having said all that, I agree in general that a team like the Pirates must prioritize a sustainable feeder system, but you can't say catagorically that spending on the major league team equals more Burnitz types.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:21 am 
sisyphus wrote:
Elmer wrote:
The last year or so, it MIGHT be going into the minor league system. That doesn't explain where it's gone for the previous decade or so. I'd like to see the rule adjusted so that luxury tax money has to go into the major league roster.

Yes, because we all know how much better off the Pirates would be if they would just sign the Burnitzes of the world.


Who says you'd have to sign the Burnitzes? I did not. There are such thing as good free agent signings, ya know . . .


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:46 am 
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Elmer wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Elmer wrote:
The last year or so, it MIGHT be going into the minor league system. That doesn't explain where it's gone for the previous decade or so. I'd like to see the rule adjusted so that luxury tax money has to go into the major league roster.

Yes, because we all know how much better off the Pirates would be if they would just sign the Burnitzes of the world.


Who says you'd have to sign the Burnitzes? I did not. There are such thing as good free agent signings, ya know . . .


I think the point is that what happens when no "good free agents" want to sign with you, and you still have to spend money? Forcing teams to spend a certain level of money on a certain area would ensure that people like Burnitz get a contract, and would probably inflate salaries across the board, making it just as difficult for the Pirates to afford these "good free agents" you speak of.

But the Player's Union is on line 1 for you Elmer...they love your idea...


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:21 pm 
Good point. I still think some form of checks and balances would help, though. Something to prevent owners from simply pocketing the luxury tax money.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:40 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Good point. I still think some form of checks and balances would help, though. Something to prevent owners from simply pocketing the luxury tax money.

Here's an idea: get rid of the luxury tax.

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:47 pm 
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Who's pocketing the tax, and how do you know?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:01 pm 
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Are we discussing revenue sharing, the luxury tax, or both? I don't believe that the luxury tax puts money directly into the Pirates pockets. And even if it did, the Yankees are the only team paying it and it's not that much.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:42 pm 
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bradf wrote:
I'm not arguing for a requirement to spend the money on the major-league team, but there is a serious flaw in your argument Sisyphus.

You are assuming that a management team would spend the money better on the minor league system than they would on the major league system. The same GM who couldn't recognize and evaluate major league talent also was terrible with most of his draft picks....the same guy who brought us Burnitz brought us Bullington and Van Ben Suckin.

No argument there, but I do think that the ability to identify established major league talent is very different from the ability to project how a 17 year old will develop. The latter is much harder to do.

The biggest problem with signing Burnitz, to me, was not that he was already washed up. It was that signing guys like Burnitz and Randa was just a total waste of money. Even if both come in and have the best years that you can imagine for them at that stage of their careers, the Pirates weren't going to contend, and they were both too old to hang around until contention became possible.

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Therefore, by extension, if you trust that the existing GM will be better at drafting, you should be able to assume that he is better at picking major league talent, as well. He should also be smart enough to put money in the major league system by investing in good young players like Doumit and McClouth and Mahalom. You don't have to bring in any new players to invest in your major league team.

I'm fine with that, but I'd like to point out that Doumit is 27 with a history of injuries, and McLouth is 26. I'd be wary of tying either up beyond his 30th birthday, so that gives you a 3-4 year window to reach contention. It will take a heroic effort to get this team to that level by 2010 or 2011. I'd be a lot more comfortable tying them up long term if they were both a couple of years younger.

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Having said all that, I agree in general that a team like the Pirates must prioritize a sustainable feeder system, but you can't say catagorically that spending on the major league team equals more Burnitz types.

It does when you look at the current crop of free agents out there. The Pirates aren't going to get the cream of the free agent crop, and the mid range guys almost always cost way more than they're worth.

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:45 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Elmer wrote:
The last year or so, it MIGHT be going into the minor league system. That doesn't explain where it's gone for the previous decade or so. I'd like to see the rule adjusted so that luxury tax money has to go into the major league roster.

Yes, because we all know how much better off the Pirates would be if they would just sign the Burnitzes of the world.


Who says you'd have to sign the Burnitzes? I did not. There are such thing as good free agent signings, ya know . . .

There is an occasional bargain, but generally a free agent crop breaks down into three groups: the elite players, who command way too much money for the Pirates at this stage, the bums, and the guys in between. The guys in between are the ones that you have to be very careful about. They usually end up getting a lot more than they're worth.

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:44 pm 
ZelieMike wrote:
Who's pocketing the tax, and how do you know?

ZM


I don't know. It's just an educated guess given I haven't seen the payroll go up or any real improvement in the minor league system until last year.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:05 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
Who's pocketing the tax, and how do you know?

ZM


I don't know. It's just an educated guess given I haven't seen the payroll go up or any real improvement in the minor league system until last year.

Elmer, don't you think that it might be a bit unfair to expect Huntingdon to have improved the minor league system before he was even hired?

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:49 pm 
sisyphus wrote:
Elmer wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
Who's pocketing the tax, and how do you know?

ZM


I don't know. It's just an educated guess given I haven't seen the payroll go up or any real improvement in the minor league system until last year.

Elmer, don't you think that it might be a bit unfair to expect Huntingdon to have improved the minor league system before he was even hired?


I'm not blaming NH for that. If anything, I'm complimenting NH because I'm saying that last year was the first year I saw ANY improvement in the minor league system. NH is a complete non-factor in the point I'm making here.

My point is that the Pirates were receiving luxury tax money for a decade or so and during that time I didn't see any improvement to the minor league sytem or a significant increase in payroll most years. So that's why I suspect ownership is/was pocking the luxury tax money.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:02 pm 
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And, were you one who lauded McClatchey for "not taking shortcuts" at PNC? People at the time criticized the Rooney's for taking those shortcuts to stay in budget, and lauded McClatchey for "going top notch" every time a decision for an overrun ran against quality.

Millions were added to the construction of PNC.

Are you suggesting they should not have paid that down? Do you not believe it a good idea to have working capital to spend on development etc, rather than living in debt-service all the time?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:32 pm 
ZelieMike wrote:
And, were you one who lauded McClatchey for "not taking shortcuts" at PNC? People at the time criticized the Rooney's for taking those shortcuts to stay in budget, and lauded McClatchey for "going top notch" every time a decision for an overrun ran against quality.

Millions were added to the construction of PNC.

Are you suggesting they should not have paid that down? Do you not believe it a good idea to have working capital to spend on development etc, rather than living in debt-service all the time?

ZM


No, I'm suggesting there was (and in some ways still is) poor management all around with the club.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:11 pm 
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So, you don't think it a good idea to have spent the extra on PNC?

I'm not sure what you mean by "poor" management. Is it poor to reduce a debt service? Is it poor to pay early investors their investment plus profit when they leave (Gannassi et al). Is it poor to make sure you have enough cash on hand to pay payroll?

Or, are you suggesting they spent too much money on UFA's?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:29 pm 
ZelieMike wrote:
So, you don't think it a good idea to have spent the extra on PNC?

I'm not sure what you mean by "poor" management. Is it poor to reduce a debt service? Is it poor to pay early investors their investment plus profit when they leave (Gannassi et al). Is it poor to make sure you have enough cash on hand to pay payroll?

Or, are you suggesting they spent too much money on UFA's?

ZM


ZM, I think there has been some mismanagement in many areas of the team 's operations for some time now. You don't get to where they are without mismanagement, in my opinion.

Spending beyond your means is always irresponsible. Not investing in young talent is bad management. Overpaying for bad UFAs is bad management. There's been a lot.

It's not poor to make sure you have enough cash on hand for payroll. I'm not sure where you got that one, I don't think I implied otherwise.

Without opening the books, I have my doubts as to where the money that comes in actually goes. I really think mismanagement in a lot of ways has gotten the Pirates to where they are now.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:58 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Without opening the books, I have my doubts as to where the money that comes in actually goes.

Well, then perhaps it's very premature to claim that ownership was simply pocketing the revenue sharing money.

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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:00 pm 
Willton wrote:
Elmer wrote:
Without opening the books, I have my doubts as to where the money that comes in actually goes.

Well, then perhaps it's very premature to claim that ownership was simply pocketing the revenue sharing money.


Just my hunch based on what I've seen. I'm entitled to that, just as you are entitled to your beliefs.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is our luxury tax money actually going?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:29 pm 
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Signing Jeremy Beernutz qualifies as mis management of funds. You think?


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