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 Post subject: Re: Pirates To Sign Francisco Liriano
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:52 pm 
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Reading that it's his non-throwing arm. Weird.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates To Sign Francisco Liriano
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:57 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
Nothing like being lied to-

Rob Biertempfel @BiertempfelTrib

LHP Francisco Liriano injured right arm in Dec. #Pirates continue to talk to agent, but no deal imminent

I trust Biertempfel less than I would trust Richard Nixon.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates To Sign Francisco Liriano
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:12 pm 
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This could open up the opportunity to sign either Lohse or Marcum.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates To Sign Francisco Liriano
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:12 pm 
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Willton wrote:
This could open up the opportunity to sign either Lohse or Marcum.

Does either one cost a draft pick?

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates To Sign Francisco Liriano
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:27 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Willton wrote:
This could open up the opportunity to sign either Lohse or Marcum.

Does either one cost a draft pick?

I think Lohse does.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates To Sign Francisco Liriano
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:06 am 
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Willton wrote:
This could open up the opportunity to sign either Lohse or Marcum.


No thanks to Lohse, not worth losing the draft pick. Marcum is someone I always liked. A solid innings eater.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates To Sign Francisco Liriano
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:38 am 
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It's not going to break my heart if we don't sign Liriano. I was skeptical about his chances.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates To Sign Francisco Liriano
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:46 am 
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Willton wrote:
This could open up the opportunity to sign either Lohse or Marcum.


Or Jeff Karstens.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates To Sign Francisco Liriano
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:35 am 
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nad69dan wrote:
Willton wrote:
This could open up the opportunity to sign either Lohse or Marcum.


Or Jeff Karstens.


Karstens still available? Shocking. Utterly shocking. Perhaps NH and Gayo are spreading lies about his age or health and scaring other teams away. Or . . . perhaps . . . he just isn't a much sought out commodity.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates To Sign Francisco Liriano
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:30 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Karstens still available? Shocking. Utterly shocking. Perhaps NH and Gayo are spreading lies about his age or health and scaring other teams away. Or . . . perhaps . . . he just isn't a much sought out commodity.


Alternatively, Karstens' agent knows that he'll be more valuable in February or early March when teams have injuries or become desperate for starting pitching. But hey, you can take the "reflexively pro-Huntington" position if you like...


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates To Sign Francisco Liriano
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:02 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
Karstens still available? Shocking. Utterly shocking. Perhaps NH and Gayo are spreading lies about his age or health and scaring other teams away. Or . . . perhaps . . . he just isn't a much sought out commodity.


Alternatively, Karstens' agent knows that he'll be more valuable in February or early March when teams have injuries or become desperate for starting pitching. But hey, you can take the "reflexively pro-Huntington" position if you like...

Pot, meet kettle.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates To Sign Francisco Liriano
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:51 pm 
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Why don't all free agent pitchers take that approach if it makes them more valuable?

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates To Sign Francisco Liriano
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:15 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
Karstens still available? Shocking. Utterly shocking. Perhaps NH and Gayo are spreading lies about his age or health and scaring other teams away. Or . . . perhaps . . . he just isn't a much sought out commodity.


Alternatively, Karstens' agent knows that he'll be more valuable in February or early March when teams have injuries or become desperate for starting pitching. But hey, you can take the "reflexively pro-Huntington" position if you like...


It's not a "pro-Huntington" position. It is simultaneously a market analysis and commentary on the "sky is falling" attitude demonstrated by some when Karstens was non-tendered.

If Karstens was truly a valuable, sought after commodity, teams wouldn't be waiting to add him to their roster only after injuries occurred in the Spring. If that is indeed the mindset and approach adopted by other GMs, then they obviously value the players on their roster ahead of Karstens.

I really don't give a damn about whether Jeff Karstens was non-tendered. I see the positives in doing so and see the negatives in doing so. It involved a judgment call. Similar to not concluding that Huntington was an idiot for letting Karstens go, I would not be proclaiming Huntington to be a genius for tendering an offer and going to arbitration. 6 of one; 1/2 dozen of the other. In the big scheme of what is right and what is wrong with the current roster and management structure, the Karstens situation is a non-issue in my eyes.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates To Sign Francisco Liriano
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:16 pm 
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Willton wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
Karstens still available? Shocking. Utterly shocking. Perhaps NH and Gayo are spreading lies about his age or health and scaring other teams away. Or . . . perhaps . . . he just isn't a much sought out commodity.


Alternatively, Karstens' agent knows that he'll be more valuable in February or early March when teams have injuries or become desperate for starting pitching. But hey, you can take the "reflexively pro-Huntington" position if you like...

Pot, meet kettle.


I'm not reflexively anti-Huntington. I posted in this very thread that I liked the Liriano signing (though I added the caveat that I would have preferred a one-year deal).

Viewing his overall five-year body of work, I think Huntington should be fired. That doesn't mean all of his moves are bad.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates To Sign Francisco Liriano
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:17 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
Karstens still available? Shocking. Utterly shocking. Perhaps NH and Gayo are spreading lies about his age or health and scaring other teams away. Or . . . perhaps . . . he just isn't a much sought out commodity.


Alternatively, Karstens' agent knows that he'll be more valuable in February or early March when teams have injuries or become desperate for starting pitching. But hey, you can take the "reflexively pro-Huntington" position if you like...


It's not a "pro-Huntington" position. It is simultaneously a market analysis and commentary on the "sky is falling" attitude demonstrated by some when Karstens was non-tendered.

If Karstens was truly a valuable, sought after commodity, teams wouldn't be waiting to add him to their roster only after injuries occurred in the Spring. If that is indeed the mindset and approach adopted by other GMs, then they obviously value the players on their roster ahead of Karstens.

I really don't give a damn about whether Jeff Karstens was non-tendered. I see the positives in doing so and see the negatives in doing so. It involved a judgment call. Similar to not concluding that Huntington was an idiot for letting Karstens go, I would not be proclaiming Huntington to be a genius for tendering an offer and going to arbitration. 6 of one; 1/2 dozen of the other. In the big scheme of what is right and what is wrong with the current roster and management structure, the Karstens situation is a non-issue in my eyes.


I never said the "sky was falling" when the Pirates non-tendered Karstens. All I said was that I thought it was a dumb move. That was my opinion then, and that's still my opinion now.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates To Sign Francisco Liriano
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:15 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
I'm not reflexively anti-Huntington. I posted in this very thread that I liked the Liriano signing (though I added the caveat that I would have preferred a one-year deal).

Viewing his overall five-year body of work, I think Huntington should be fired. That doesn't mean all of his moves are bad.

Oh, I see. Grudgingly acknowledging that the Liriano signing was a positive while making sure to qualify your position that Huntington could have done better is an indication that you are not reflexively anti-Huntington. Riiiiiight.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates To Sign Francisco Liriano
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:37 pm 
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Willton wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
I'm not reflexively anti-Huntington. I posted in this very thread that I liked the Liriano signing (though I added the caveat that I would have preferred a one-year deal).

Viewing his overall five-year body of work, I think Huntington should be fired. That doesn't mean all of his moves are bad.

Oh, I see. Grudgingly acknowledging that the Liriano signing was a positive while making sure to qualify your position that Huntington could have done better is an indication that you are not reflexively anti-Huntington. Riiiiiight.


I gave unqualified praise for the A.J. Burnett acquisition, and I wholly supported the Wandy Rodriguez (even as many criticized it). I am certainly not reflexively anti-Huntington.

I came to have a negative opinion on Huntington's overall five-year body of work based on reason and logic, not reflexive criticism.

Meanwhile, you describe Walt Jocketty as "in the dark ages of baseball" while he leads the Reds to the playoffs two of the last three years and has them positioned as the NL Central favorite in 2013.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates To Sign Francisco Liriano
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:58 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Willton wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
I'm not reflexively anti-Huntington. I posted in this very thread that I liked the Liriano signing (though I added the caveat that I would have preferred a one-year deal).

Viewing his overall five-year body of work, I think Huntington should be fired. That doesn't mean all of his moves are bad.

Oh, I see. Grudgingly acknowledging that the Liriano signing was a positive while making sure to qualify your position that Huntington could have done better is an indication that you are not reflexively anti-Huntington. Riiiiiight.


I gave unqualified praise for the A.J. Burnett acquisition, and I wholly supported the Wandy Rodriguez (even as many criticized it). I am certainly not reflexively anti-Huntington.

I came to have a negative opinion on Huntington's overall five-year body of work based on reason and logic, not reflexive criticism.

Meanwhile, you describe Walt Jocketty as "in the dark ages of baseball" while he leads the Reds to the playoffs two of the last three years and has them positioned as the NL Central favorite in 2013.

Being defiantly old-school does not preclude winning, as Jocketty has proven. I just don't think it's a wise way to run an organization long term.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates To Sign Francisco Liriano
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:00 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Being defiantly old-school does not preclude winning, as Jocketty has proven. I just don't think it's a wise way to run an organization long term.


His long-term success with the Cardinals, including an incredible run from 2000-2006, says otherwise.

We'll see if the Reds peter out or continue to contend and qualify for the playoffs.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates To Sign Francisco Liriano
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:21 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
It's not a "pro-Huntington" position. It is simultaneously a market analysis and commentary on the "sky is falling" attitude demonstrated by some when Karstens was non-tendered.

If Karstens was truly a valuable, sought after commodity, teams wouldn't be waiting to add him to their roster only after injuries occurred in the Spring. If that is indeed the mindset and approach adopted by other GMs, then they obviously value the players on their roster ahead of Karstens.

I really don't give a damn about whether Jeff Karstens was non-tendered. I see the positives in doing so and see the negatives in doing so. It involved a judgment call. Similar to not concluding that Huntington was an idiot for letting Karstens go, I would not be proclaiming Huntington to be a genius for tendering an offer and going to arbitration. 6 of one; 1/2 dozen of the other. In the big scheme of what is right and what is wrong with the current roster and management structure, the Karstens situation is a non-issue in my eyes.


I never said the "sky was falling" when the Pirates non-tendered Karstens. All I said was that I thought it was a dumb move. That was my opinion then, and that's still my opinion now.


I never levied any such accusation towards you. You were the one who jumped on my post and accused me of being "reflexively pro-Huntington."

There are any number of teams who could add a quality 4th or 5th slot starting pitcher. Thus far, I have yet to read one article identifying that any team is clamoring to replace one of their existing 4th or 5th starters with Jeff Karstens. And if Karstens was widely viewed by other scouts and GMs as a valuable commodity, why would any team wait to sign him at risk of some other team jumping in and signing him? That doesn't make any sense to me.

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