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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:52 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Charleston_Charlies wrote:
Wonder what the Buccos front office staff did to make DK this way.


They traded Nate McClouth for Charlie Morton.
They didn't make a "splash" at the trading deadline this year by trading Taillon or Cole.
They didn't immediately fire every staff member when he all but demanded it when he reported the "Hoka Hey" email and SEAL training.
They signed a free agent catcher this year that he doesn't like.
They didn't tender an offer to Jeff Karstens.
They haven't touted Hanrahan enough.
They didn't sign a lucrative enough TV deal . . (nevermind that Fox Sports San Diego includes the Las Vegas market - took me all of 90 seconds to find that on the internet).
The Pirates Charities sign blocks part of his view of downtown Pittsburgh.

All in all . . . they aren't doing things the way he would be doing them if he was the Owner, President and General Manager and, let's face it, one person (particularly a person who earns a living second guessing and offering criticism of others) should be able to do the job of three and do so much more effectively.


How about...

They signed a horrendous TV deal with Root Sports.
They wasted the PBC's limited financial resources on numerous failed free agents.
They have presided over five consecutive losing seasons.
They have been part of two of the worst second-half collapses in baseball history.
They have, despite drafting at the top of multiple drafts, failed to produce a single superstar. (Remember, the team's best hitters are Andrew McCutchen and Neil Walker, both drafted by the previous regime).
They have forced prospects to jump across holes filled with ice water, initiated them through a "Hell Week," and instituted a military attitude that the owner has ordered them to cease and desist.

But hey, I guess the Pirates' front office is beyond reproach.


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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:19 pm 
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Feel free to pile on guys. An intelligent reader should be able to read between the lines and realize DK has a bone to pick with this current management. Every, every, every article he writes these days is a condemnation on this current management team. Think perhaps that they may have had something to do with him losing his job? Think that may be the reason for his constant diatribe against them? It's become apparent that it is personal for him.

As for today's gibberish... Anyone foolish enough to think that the Pirates could get more out of a TV deal is simply not thinking with his head. Who else would bid against Root Sports? Seriously... who else is out there that would be willing to give the Pirates more than $20 million per year? Who else would televise 150+ Pirates games per year? There are 4 local Network TV stations in Pittsburgh... none could pay that kind of money, let alone be willing to give-up prime-time network TV programming each night. Just because the Dodgers can command a small fortune doesn't mean that the Pirate's can. DK is grasping at straws, just so he can be critical against these guys.

This is my last post in this thread. DK has become a hack with a personal agenda against this management team. And some of you are naive enough to follow his every word and pile on. Heck, it's even become the trendy thing to do in Pittsburgh (make fun of the Pirates). Many people (including DK) want to indict this management team for the sins of the past. I'll not be a part of it.

Call me a cheerleader if you want Steel, but let's just see who's cheering next summer. I'll bet donuts to dollars that regardless of how the team does on the field next year, DK will continue to write about the management team. And that is my point.


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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:40 pm 
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Charleston_Charlies wrote:
Feel free to pile on guys. An intelligent reader should be able to read between the lines and realize DK has a bone to pick with this current management. Every, every, every article he writes these days is a condemnation on this current management team. Think perhaps that they may have had something to do with him losing his job? Think that may be the reason for his constant diatribe against them? It's become apparent that it is personal for him.

As for today's gibberish... Anyone foolish enough to think that the Pirates could get more out of a TV deal is simply not thinking with his head. Who else would bid against Root Sports? Seriously... who else is out there that would be willing to give the Pirates more than $20 million per year? Who else would televise 150+ Pirates games per year? There are 4 local Network TV stations in Pittsburgh... none could pay that kind of money, let alone be willing to give-up prime-time network TV programming each night. Just because the Dodgers can command a small fortune doesn't mean that the Pirate's can. DK is grasping at straws, just so he can be critical against these guys.

This is my last post in this thread. DK has become a hack with a personal agenda against this management team. And some of you are naive enough to follow his every word and pile on. Heck, it's even become the trendy thing to do in Pittsburgh (make fun of the Pirates). Many people (including DK) want to indict this management team for the sins of the past. I'll not be a part of it.

Call me a cheerleader if you want Steel, but let's just see who's cheering next summer. I'll bet donuts to dollars that regardless of how the team does on the field next year, DK will continue to write about the management team. And that is my point.


This is bullsh*t.

First, DK has praised this management team when he believed they earned it. He praised the move for A.J. Burnett, the trade for Wandy Rodriguez, the signing of Jason Grilli. Those particular opinions don't fit your chosen narrative, so you ignore them. That's called "bias," Charlie. So if you're looking for a "hack," please consult a mirror.

Second, the bad deal with Root Sports is bad for several reasons. The Pirates could have partnered with the Penguins to get a better deal overall. Given the ratings the Pirates enjoy on Root -- which surpasses that of the local San Diego Padres network -- the team should receive more than what they're getting. If the Padres get $60 million/year and garner lower ratings than the Pirates, why can't the Pirates at least get close to that? The bottom line is that it's a bad deal.

Third, all of the points I make above and that DK has made lately relate to the actions of the CURRENT management, not the sins of past management teams. There are quite enough mistakes made by Frank Coonelly, Neal Huntington and company such that neither DK nor I need to focus on prior mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:50 pm 
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I always assumed Dejan moved to the Trib voluntarily because it pays better.


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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:59 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Charleston_Charlies wrote:
Wonder what the Buccos front office staff did to make DK this way.


They traded Nate McClouth for Charlie Morton.
They didn't make a "splash" at the trading deadline this year by trading Taillon or Cole.
They didn't immediately fire every staff member when he all but demanded it when he reported the "Hoka Hey" email and SEAL training.
They signed a free agent catcher this year that he doesn't like.
They didn't tender an offer to Jeff Karstens.
They haven't touted Hanrahan enough.
They didn't sign a lucrative enough TV deal . . (nevermind that Fox Sports San Diego includes the Las Vegas market - took me all of 90 seconds to find that on the internet).
The Pirates Charities sign blocks part of his view of downtown Pittsburgh.

All in all . . . they aren't doing things the way he would be doing them if he was the Owner, President and General Manager and, let's face it, one person (particularly a person who earns a living second guessing and offering criticism of others) should be able to do the job of three and do so much more effectively.


:D

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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:37 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
Dejan has gotten whiney and over-the-top in his comments about the Pirates, but this is pretty good.

http://triblive.com/sports/dejankovacevic/dejancolumns/3118454-74/baseball-coonelly-pirates#axzz2EWdvu9vk

Dejan's Pirate columns are starting to sound like something old Bullish would have written.

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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:49 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
You really have to "search" for things to discredit an organization that has fielded losing teams for 20 consecutive years? You really have to "search" for things to discredit a front office that has squandered the PBC's limited resources on horrible free agent deals year after year?

Looks to me like Dejan does. His column comparing Huntington's drafts to Littlefield's was a pathetic example of comparing apples to oranges. He can't let go of the hoka hey garbage, which nobody cares about. You can't make any sort of positive comment concerning the Pirates on his blog without risking ridicule from Dejan. It's getting to the point where I have a hard time taking anything that he writes about the Pirates seriously.

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You really have to have a "personal agenda" to criticize the current Pittsburgh Pirates front office? You have to have a "personal agenda" to write columns about the PBC's ridiculous player developmental approaches that end up being vetoed by ownership?

Nope. You need to have a personal agenda to compare the results of six drafts five years after the last one to the results of five drafts a few months after the last one.

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Well, I guess it's always easier to attack the messenger than actually address the message. Lazier, too.

It is when the messenger is so far out of line.

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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:53 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Charleston_Charlies wrote:
Wonder what the Buccos front office staff did to make DK this way.


They traded Nate McClouth for Charlie Morton.
They didn't make a "splash" at the trading deadline this year by trading Taillon or Cole.
They didn't immediately fire every staff member when he all but demanded it when he reported the "Hoka Hey" email and SEAL training.
They signed a free agent catcher this year that he doesn't like.
They didn't tender an offer to Jeff Karstens.
They haven't touted Hanrahan enough.
They didn't sign a lucrative enough TV deal . . (nevermind that Fox Sports San Diego includes the Las Vegas market - took me all of 90 seconds to find that on the internet).
The Pirates Charities sign blocks part of his view of downtown Pittsburgh.

All in all . . . they aren't doing things the way he would be doing them if he was the Owner, President and General Manager and, let's face it, one person (particularly a person who earns a living second guessing and offering criticism of others) should be able to do the job of three and do so much more effectively.

You left out the part about how they traded two month each of Jack and an injured Freddie. That's when I first noticed a change in the tone of his writing.

It isn't hard to find legitimate reasons to criticize management. That's why I don't understand the ridiculous stuff he's been writing lately.

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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:35 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Looks to me like Dejan does. His column comparing Huntington's drafts to Littlefield's was a pathetic example of comparing apples to oranges. He can't let go of the hoka hey garbage, which nobody cares about. You can't make any sort of positive comment concerning the Pirates on his blog without risking ridicule from Dejan. It's getting to the point where I have a hard time taking anything that he writes about the Pirates seriously.



Nothing these guys do should be compared to Littlefield. If that is the bar, then we are in big trouble.

People do care about the hoka hey garbage...apparently all over baseball. The owner of the team thought enough of it to tell them to knock it off. But looking past that, how about the fact that they hired two guys to run the minor league system that have no baseball teaching experience at this level. Then look at guys when they come up...ridiculously poor baseball fundamentals. Heck, even our best player(who has blazing speed by the way) is a horrible base runner. You see the poor development and then throw this ridiculous hoka hey stuff on top and you have a joke of a player development system.

I won't argue that DK thinks he is always right, and doesn't play well with others when they disagree with him. In this case I think he is taking a lot of criticism from some for pointing out FACTS. It's not like he is making this stuff up. I'm not sure what personal agenda the guy can have with the team he has professed over and over to love. Again, his personality can be grating, but that doesn't mean he has some hidden agenda...


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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:25 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Looks to me like Dejan does. His column comparing Huntington's drafts to Littlefield's was a pathetic example of comparing apples to oranges. He can't let go of the hoka hey garbage, which nobody cares about. You can't make any sort of positive comment concerning the Pirates on his blog without risking ridicule from Dejan. It's getting to the point where I have a hard time taking anything that he writes about the Pirates seriously.



Nothing these guys do should be compared to Littlefield. If that is the bar, then we are in big trouble.

People do care about the hoka hey garbage...apparently all over baseball.

Who? And among Pirate fans, how many have jumped ship over it? All of the people I hear squawking about it are the same people who squawk about every move the Pirates make.

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The owner of the team thought enough of it to tell them to knock it off.

Of course he did. It had been made into a PR disaster.

Quote:
But looking past that, how about the fact that they hired two guys to run the minor league system that have no baseball teaching experience at this level. Then look at guys when they come up...ridiculously poor baseball fundamentals. Heck, even our best player(who has blazing speed by the way) is a horrible base runner. You see the poor development and then throw this ridiculous hoka hey stuff on top and you have a joke of a player development system.

All of those Littlefield guys who Dejan used as examples that Huntington couldn't draft are the same guys that were developed primarily under Littlefield. You can't say they're good players on when talking about drafting, then bad players when talking about development.

Quote:
I won't argue that DK thinks he is always right, and doesn't play well with others when they disagree with him. In this case I think he is taking a lot of criticism from some for pointing out FACTS. It's not like he is making this stuff up. I'm not sure what personal agenda the guy can have with the team he has professed over and over to love. Again, his personality can be grating, but that doesn't mean he has some hidden agenda...

His isn't trying to hide his agenda. He wants the whole front office out. I don't have a problem with that; I wouldn't have been upset if the whole crew had been canned at the end of the season. I do have a problem with the dishonest way he presents his case. I hate to call it dishonest, but I don't think that he's stupid, and some of the things that have made it to print were ridiculous.

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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:11 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
PirateParrot wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Looks to me like Dejan does. His column comparing Huntington's drafts to Littlefield's was a pathetic example of comparing apples to oranges. He can't let go of the hoka hey garbage, which nobody cares about. You can't make any sort of positive comment concerning the Pirates on his blog without risking ridicule from Dejan. It's getting to the point where I have a hard time taking anything that he writes about the Pirates seriously.



Nothing these guys do should be compared to Littlefield. If that is the bar, then we are in big trouble.

People do care about the hoka hey garbage...apparently all over baseball.

Who? And among Pirate fans, how many have jumped ship over it? All of the people I hear squawking about it are the same people who squawk about every move the Pirates make.

I jumped ship... well, in terms of respecting the Huntington regime. I'm ready for the transition to the next management group...


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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:01 pm 
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val wrote:
I jumped ship... well, in terms of respecting the Huntington regime. I'm ready for the transition to the next management group...

You jumped ship over off season training methods? Really?

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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:04 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
val wrote:
I jumped ship... well, in terms of respecting the Huntington regime. I'm ready for the transition to the next management group...

You jumped ship over off season training methods? Really?

Umm, it wasn't off-season. The weekend so noted was in late June.

For the record, I don't have a problem with giving the youngsters the advanced-outward-bound experience. In theory. It's just that it seemed so ill-managed and was indicative of other problems. Like having Polanco doing stolen base drills at 6:00 am with overweight coaches tending second base. And, just from a very casual observer, it's seemed like our team fundamentals have been weak for years and years, and we read that many in baseball find our minor league preparation to be almost criminally incompetent. And after reading Starke's email, he certainly seems incompetent to me. I fully admit to being relatively ignorant about the team. A year ago, I had no idea who Kyle Starke was. I don't think about the minors. Except that I do now, and it scares me.

Some teams are remarkably well run. And some teams aren't. We're in the latter category...


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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:52 am 
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DK really comes across like a fool in his blog toady. He's trying to pit Nutting against management over Hoka Hey. He refuses to see that there is plenty of grey area in the statements made by Nutting about the future directions taken. Apparently, DK wanted Pirate Fest to be about Hoka Hey and nothing else and he can't fathom why management didn't grovel on their knees for forgiveness. Give it up, no one cares, it wasn't a big deal when it happened and it certainly isn't now.

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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:38 pm 
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I want to see if I'm following the sequence of events correctly . . .

On Thursday, December 13th, Kovacevic writes a column in which he challenges readers to add a little "extra pepper" at FanFast and all but dares his readers to ask a number of questions, including the following:

For Coonelly: Now that Bob Nutting has ordered a halt to your year-round military practices in the minors, saying he wants this to be a baseball team and not a “boot camp,” do you now — at least publicly — support his stance?

Or will you continue to say, as you did in an interview last month with an Altoona radio station — after Nutting‘s order — that the criticism of your training methods was “overblown?”

Was the franchise owner‘s criticism overblown?


See: http://triblive.com/sports/dejankovacev ... z2FK2evXAb

And, not shockingly, on Saturday, December 15th, an attendee at FanFest chose to ask a question that tracked very closely to what Kovacevic penned above. See: http://triblive.com/sports/pirates/3142 ... z2FK2evXAb

So, today, in his blog, Kovacevic appears to be incredulous that this issue keeps coming up and appears to be flabbergasted. He writes:

It’s amazing, really. This story should have died the day Nutting spoke those words. I know it certainly died in my mind. But Coonelly and Huntington keep bringing it up again and again and again, as if they’re more determined to show everyone that they and Kyle Stark were right than, you know, doing what the boss wants and, you know, keeping their jobs.

What a franchise.


http://blog.triblive.com/dejan-kovacevi ... nt-office/

So . . . in other words, Kovacevic dared his readers to challenge Pirate management on issue and, when they did, he was ready to jump in and criticize management for "not letting the story die." Notably, not a single season ticket holder brought up the issue on Friday and neither Huntington nor Coonelly raised the issue. It was only after some hero with the courage to utter "Hoka Hey" as he walked away from the microphone (probably an internet "tough guy") that the issue was addressed by Huntington. Hmmmm . . . let me guess, if they had answered "Bob Nutting has spoken, he's set the story straight, we've got nothing further to add" . . . how would have that been received?

You wonder why there are some who question motives? This would be a very good Exhibit.

BTW, Jason Grilli apparently left money on the table to stay a Pirate and FanFest generated record numbers. So much for Hoka Hey . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:25 pm 
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Yeah! Heck with Hoka Hey, we got big numbers at PirateFest AND Jason Grilli resigned!!! Woohoo who cares about those late season collapses, and piss poor player development!

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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:47 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Yeah! Heck with Hoka Hey, we got big numbers at PirateFest AND Jason Grilli resigned!!! Woohoo who cares about those late season collapses, and piss poor player development!


No, we do actually care about collapses and player development, not this Hoka Hey nonsense, try reading comprehension.

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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:34 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
BTW, Jason Grilli apparently left money on the table to stay a Pirate and FanFest generated record numbers. So much for Hoka Hey . . .

And Edwin Jackson took less to go elsewhere last year. What's your point?

I'm sure Piratefest is fun, and if I lived closer would probably go. But people go to Piratefest for similar reasons they fill up the park on fireworks nights. Please tell me you aren't trying to prove your point by bringing up record crowds at fire..er, I mean Piratefest.

The guys running our minor league system have zero baseball teaching experience, but are described by NH as very intelligent guys. They constantly send guys through the system with limited developmental skills. They do however run a militaristic type of program highlighted by Hoka Hey(which was a big enough deal to draw the ire of the owner). Yea, they are really intelligent. Give me some dumb baseball guys any day...

As for the DK part, I agree he is beating the heck out of the dead horse. Doesn't mean I don't agree with his points though...


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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:53 pm 
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Perhaps the most humorous point about today's blog is that Kovacevic writes that Huntington and Coonelly keep bringing it up as if they want to prove that they were right instead of moving on.

Really? Seriously?

Huntington and Coonelly keep bringing it up because they want to prove that they were right?

Pot meet kettle.

I think that a certain other person won't let it die because (a) he made a huge deal out of it; (b) others demonstrated the inaccuracy of some of the so-called facts; (c) that person's focus shifted quickly from the SEAL training to Hoka Hey and (d) much to someone's chagrin, he didn't lead the way in getting a bunch of people fired.

Just my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:03 pm 
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val wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
val wrote:
I jumped ship... well, in terms of respecting the Huntington regime. I'm ready for the transition to the next management group...

You jumped ship over off season training methods? Really?

Umm, it wasn't off-season. The weekend so noted was in late June.

I'm not claiming to have seen all of the coverage, but I was under the impression that this stuff happened in September.

Quote:
For the record, I don't have a problem with giving the youngsters the advanced-outward-bound experience. In theory. It's just that it seemed so ill-managed and was indicative of other problems. Like having Polanco doing stolen base drills at 6:00 am with overweight coaches tending second base.

Was it ill managed because the drills were in the early morning, or merely because the coaches were fat?

Quote:
And, just from a very casual observer, it's seemed like our team fundamentals have been weak for years and years, and we read that many in baseball find our minor league preparation to be almost criminally incompetent.

Not that long ago, many in baseball thought that Billy Beane was incompetent. In the 1970's everybody in baseball knew that weightlifting was bad for baseball players. Baseball is the most conservative institution I've ever seen. Not just resistant to change, but actively hostile to change.

I agree with you about the fundamentals, though. Pathetic.

Quote:
And after reading Starke's email, he certainly seems incompetent to me. I fully admit to being relatively ignorant about the team. A year ago, I had no idea who Kyle Starke was. I don't think about the minors. Except that I do now, and it scares me.

Some teams are remarkably well run. And some teams aren't. We're in the latter category...

Yet somehow they managed to improve their win total by 22 games over the last two seasons, and put up their best record since 1997.

As I've said elsewhere, there is definitely a case to be made against the current administration. It doesn't involve Seal-type training, though.

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