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 Post subject: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:32 pm 
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Dejan has gotten whiney and over-the-top in his comments about the Pirates, but this is pretty good.

http://triblive.com/sports/dejankovacevic/dejancolumns/3118454-74/baseball-coonelly-pirates#axzz2EWdvu9vk


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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:53 pm 
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Couldn't even read it. "Coonly, blah, blah, personal agenda, blah. Huntington, blah, blah, blah. Nutting, blah, personal agenda, blah, personal agenda, blah."

DK's just searching for anything now to discredit the Pirates. Makes me wonder what really happened with him and the Pirates. Item #1, He's no longer with the Post Gazette. Item #2, He's no longer even a beat writer covering the Pirates. Item #3, He's constantly looking to "blog" his opinion about how bad this management team is. SCREAMS "personal agenda." Wonder what the Buccos front office staff did to make DK this way. His writing reeks of an agenda of revenge. And frankly, it's getting old and boring, and to an intelligent reader, it says more negatively about Dejan than it does the Pirate's front office.


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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:07 pm 
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You really have to "search" for things to discredit an organization that has fielded losing teams for 20 consecutive years? You really have to "search" for things to discredit a front office that has squandered the PBC's limited resources on horrible free agent deals year after year?

You really have to have a "personal agenda" to criticize the current Pittsburgh Pirates front office? You have to have a "personal agenda" to write columns about the PBC's ridiculous player developmental approaches that end up being vetoed by ownership?

Well, I guess it's always easier to attack the messenger than actually address the message. Lazier, too.


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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:07 pm 
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I like to think I am an intelligent reader, and while Kovacevic's obviously got a grudge against the Bucs, it seems kind on point to me. Seems to me that 5 years is long enough to make a difference, even with the inherited mess Huntington started with, that the questions really do have to come from the top down. Whilst most fans question the game day decisions ad nauseum, our problems are systemic. And Kovacevic is just asking when the top is going to make some changes. I got no problem with that...


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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:09 pm 
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Charleston_Charlies wrote:
Couldn't even read it. "Coonly, blah, blah, personal agenda, blah. Huntington, blah, blah, blah. Nutting, blah, personal agenda, blah, personal agenda, blah."

DK's just searching for anything now to discredit the Pirates. Makes me wonder what really happened with him and the Pirates. Item #1, He's no longer with the Post Gazette. Item #2, He's no longer even a beat writer covering the Pirates. Item #3, He's constantly looking to "blog" his opinion about how bad this management team is. SCREAMS "personal agenda." Wonder what the Buccos front office staff did to make DK this way. His writing reeks of an agenda of revenge. And frankly, it's getting old and boring, and to an intelligent reader, it says more negatively about Dejan than it does the Pirate's front office.


Get out your pom-poms, Charlie!

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I guess "intelligent" readers have no reason to question or criticize how the Pittsburgh Pirates are being run... Keep on root, root, rooting for the home team!


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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:17 pm 
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Most of DK's questions for management are fair and perfectly acceptable things to ask. Most of his commentary on his blog is ridiculous and one-sided. Of course he goes to great lengths to say that anyone who disagrees doesn't actually like to think about the team critically. His argument that the Martin signing is bad because of years of past FA failures is assanine.

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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:25 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
Most of DK's questions for management are fair and perfectly acceptable things to ask. Most of his commentary on his blog is ridiculous and one-sided. Of course he goes to great lengths to say that anyone who disagrees doesn't actually like to think about the team critically. His argument that the Martin signing is bad because of years of past FA failures is assanine.

Agreed. It's a bad signing because they once again spent a bunch of their limited money on a player who has been gradually in decline. Of course you'd think they are bound to hit on one of these guys at some point...hasn't happened yet...


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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:32 pm 
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Charleston_Charlies wrote:
Couldn't even read it. "Coonly, blah, blah, personal agenda, blah. Huntington, blah, blah, blah. Nutting, blah, personal agenda, blah, personal agenda, blah."

DK's just searching for anything now to discredit the Pirates. Makes me wonder what really happened with him and the Pirates. Item #1, He's no longer with the Post Gazette. Item #2, He's no longer even a beat writer covering the Pirates. Item #3, He's constantly looking to "blog" his opinion about how bad this management team is. SCREAMS "personal agenda." Wonder what the Buccos front office staff did to make DK this way. His writing reeks of an agenda of revenge. And frankly, it's getting old and boring, and to an intelligent reader, it says more negatively about Dejan than it does the Pirate's front office.

First off, this management team is EXCEPTIONALLY bad. Second, what "revenge" could he be after??? And third, if his personal agenda is that he wants to see someone competent run this team then count me in.

Defending this management team is a losing cause, I can tell you that. Nutting has hired a pack of fools to run his team. As BBF(I think) put it, it's not necessarily that he doesn't want to win, but he doesn't know how to do it. He hired a buffoon in Coonely, a GM that was actually descending in the Indians system, and then they hired guys to run the minor league system with NO experience at teaching the game of baseball.

NH's FA signings are miserable, his draft is far too void of impact players, and his trades have been 50/50 at best. But hey...go ahead and defend them....it sure ain't easy!!


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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:33 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
His argument that the Martin signing is bad because of years of past FA failures is assanine.


This is a point worth discussing.

I actually disagree with DK's opinion of the signing, but I agree with his overarching point that the signing must be viewed in context with the PBC's other moves. For example, Martin's signing may not have been necessary if the team hadn't swung-and-missed on Tony Sanchez. More importantly, our view of the the Martin signing must take into account the limited resources of the PBC. Would it have been better to spend that money on starting pitching and roll the dice with McKenry and Sanchez? That's a fair question, not an "assanine" one.

Again, I disagree with everyone who decides to attack the "messenger" here. DK's opinions on the Pirates are well-informed and based in fact and context. I don't agree with all of them, and I know that many of you don't agree with most of them. But at least address the substance, like Barrys Dopers has. Don't just lob grenades at the guy because he's critical of PBC management. That smacks of homerism and pom-pom waving...


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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:54 pm 
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Charleston_Charlies wrote:
Wonder what the Buccos front office staff did to make DK this way.


They traded Nate McClouth for Charlie Morton.
They didn't make a "splash" at the trading deadline this year by trading Taillon or Cole.
They didn't immediately fire every staff member when he all but demanded it when he reported the "Hoka Hey" email and SEAL training.
They signed a free agent catcher this year that he doesn't like.
They didn't tender an offer to Jeff Karstens.
They haven't touted Hanrahan enough.
They didn't sign a lucrative enough TV deal . . (nevermind that Fox Sports San Diego includes the Las Vegas market - took me all of 90 seconds to find that on the internet).
The Pirates Charities sign blocks part of his view of downtown Pittsburgh.

All in all . . . they aren't doing things the way he would be doing them if he was the Owner, President and General Manager and, let's face it, one person (particularly a person who earns a living second guessing and offering criticism of others) should be able to do the job of three and do so much more effectively.

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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:52 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Charleston_Charlies wrote:
Wonder what the Buccos front office staff did to make DK this way.


They traded Nate McClouth for Charlie Morton.
They didn't make a "splash" at the trading deadline this year by trading Taillon or Cole.
They didn't immediately fire every staff member when he all but demanded it when he reported the "Hoka Hey" email and SEAL training.
They signed a free agent catcher this year that he doesn't like.
They didn't tender an offer to Jeff Karstens.
They haven't touted Hanrahan enough.
They didn't sign a lucrative enough TV deal . . (nevermind that Fox Sports San Diego includes the Las Vegas market - took me all of 90 seconds to find that on the internet).
The Pirates Charities sign blocks part of his view of downtown Pittsburgh.

All in all . . . they aren't doing things the way he would be doing them if he was the Owner, President and General Manager and, let's face it, one person (particularly a person who earns a living second guessing and offering criticism of others) should be able to do the job of three and do so much more effectively.


How about...

They signed a horrendous TV deal with Root Sports.
They wasted the PBC's limited financial resources on numerous failed free agents.
They have presided over five consecutive losing seasons.
They have been part of two of the worst second-half collapses in baseball history.
They have, despite drafting at the top of multiple drafts, failed to produce a single superstar. (Remember, the team's best hitters are Andrew McCutchen and Neil Walker, both drafted by the previous regime).
They have forced prospects to jump across holes filled with ice water, initiated them through a "Hell Week," and instituted a military attitude that the owner has ordered them to cease and desist.

But hey, I guess the Pirates' front office is beyond reproach.


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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:19 pm 
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Feel free to pile on guys. An intelligent reader should be able to read between the lines and realize DK has a bone to pick with this current management. Every, every, every article he writes these days is a condemnation on this current management team. Think perhaps that they may have had something to do with him losing his job? Think that may be the reason for his constant diatribe against them? It's become apparent that it is personal for him.

As for today's gibberish... Anyone foolish enough to think that the Pirates could get more out of a TV deal is simply not thinking with his head. Who else would bid against Root Sports? Seriously... who else is out there that would be willing to give the Pirates more than $20 million per year? Who else would televise 150+ Pirates games per year? There are 4 local Network TV stations in Pittsburgh... none could pay that kind of money, let alone be willing to give-up prime-time network TV programming each night. Just because the Dodgers can command a small fortune doesn't mean that the Pirate's can. DK is grasping at straws, just so he can be critical against these guys.

This is my last post in this thread. DK has become a hack with a personal agenda against this management team. And some of you are naive enough to follow his every word and pile on. Heck, it's even become the trendy thing to do in Pittsburgh (make fun of the Pirates). Many people (including DK) want to indict this management team for the sins of the past. I'll not be a part of it.

Call me a cheerleader if you want Steel, but let's just see who's cheering next summer. I'll bet donuts to dollars that regardless of how the team does on the field next year, DK will continue to write about the management team. And that is my point.


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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:40 pm 
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Charleston_Charlies wrote:
Feel free to pile on guys. An intelligent reader should be able to read between the lines and realize DK has a bone to pick with this current management. Every, every, every article he writes these days is a condemnation on this current management team. Think perhaps that they may have had something to do with him losing his job? Think that may be the reason for his constant diatribe against them? It's become apparent that it is personal for him.

As for today's gibberish... Anyone foolish enough to think that the Pirates could get more out of a TV deal is simply not thinking with his head. Who else would bid against Root Sports? Seriously... who else is out there that would be willing to give the Pirates more than $20 million per year? Who else would televise 150+ Pirates games per year? There are 4 local Network TV stations in Pittsburgh... none could pay that kind of money, let alone be willing to give-up prime-time network TV programming each night. Just because the Dodgers can command a small fortune doesn't mean that the Pirate's can. DK is grasping at straws, just so he can be critical against these guys.

This is my last post in this thread. DK has become a hack with a personal agenda against this management team. And some of you are naive enough to follow his every word and pile on. Heck, it's even become the trendy thing to do in Pittsburgh (make fun of the Pirates). Many people (including DK) want to indict this management team for the sins of the past. I'll not be a part of it.

Call me a cheerleader if you want Steel, but let's just see who's cheering next summer. I'll bet donuts to dollars that regardless of how the team does on the field next year, DK will continue to write about the management team. And that is my point.


This is bullsh*t.

First, DK has praised this management team when he believed they earned it. He praised the move for A.J. Burnett, the trade for Wandy Rodriguez, the signing of Jason Grilli. Those particular opinions don't fit your chosen narrative, so you ignore them. That's called "bias," Charlie. So if you're looking for a "hack," please consult a mirror.

Second, the bad deal with Root Sports is bad for several reasons. The Pirates could have partnered with the Penguins to get a better deal overall. Given the ratings the Pirates enjoy on Root -- which surpasses that of the local San Diego Padres network -- the team should receive more than what they're getting. If the Padres get $60 million/year and garner lower ratings than the Pirates, why can't the Pirates at least get close to that? The bottom line is that it's a bad deal.

Third, all of the points I make above and that DK has made lately relate to the actions of the CURRENT management, not the sins of past management teams. There are quite enough mistakes made by Frank Coonelly, Neal Huntington and company such that neither DK nor I need to focus on prior mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:50 pm 
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I always assumed Dejan moved to the Trib voluntarily because it pays better.


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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:59 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Charleston_Charlies wrote:
Wonder what the Buccos front office staff did to make DK this way.


They traded Nate McClouth for Charlie Morton.
They didn't make a "splash" at the trading deadline this year by trading Taillon or Cole.
They didn't immediately fire every staff member when he all but demanded it when he reported the "Hoka Hey" email and SEAL training.
They signed a free agent catcher this year that he doesn't like.
They didn't tender an offer to Jeff Karstens.
They haven't touted Hanrahan enough.
They didn't sign a lucrative enough TV deal . . (nevermind that Fox Sports San Diego includes the Las Vegas market - took me all of 90 seconds to find that on the internet).
The Pirates Charities sign blocks part of his view of downtown Pittsburgh.

All in all . . . they aren't doing things the way he would be doing them if he was the Owner, President and General Manager and, let's face it, one person (particularly a person who earns a living second guessing and offering criticism of others) should be able to do the job of three and do so much more effectively.


:D

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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:37 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
Dejan has gotten whiney and over-the-top in his comments about the Pirates, but this is pretty good.

http://triblive.com/sports/dejankovacevic/dejancolumns/3118454-74/baseball-coonelly-pirates#axzz2EWdvu9vk

Dejan's Pirate columns are starting to sound like something old Bullish would have written.

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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:49 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
You really have to "search" for things to discredit an organization that has fielded losing teams for 20 consecutive years? You really have to "search" for things to discredit a front office that has squandered the PBC's limited resources on horrible free agent deals year after year?

Looks to me like Dejan does. His column comparing Huntington's drafts to Littlefield's was a pathetic example of comparing apples to oranges. He can't let go of the hoka hey garbage, which nobody cares about. You can't make any sort of positive comment concerning the Pirates on his blog without risking ridicule from Dejan. It's getting to the point where I have a hard time taking anything that he writes about the Pirates seriously.

Quote:
You really have to have a "personal agenda" to criticize the current Pittsburgh Pirates front office? You have to have a "personal agenda" to write columns about the PBC's ridiculous player developmental approaches that end up being vetoed by ownership?

Nope. You need to have a personal agenda to compare the results of six drafts five years after the last one to the results of five drafts a few months after the last one.

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Well, I guess it's always easier to attack the messenger than actually address the message. Lazier, too.

It is when the messenger is so far out of line.

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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:53 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Charleston_Charlies wrote:
Wonder what the Buccos front office staff did to make DK this way.


They traded Nate McClouth for Charlie Morton.
They didn't make a "splash" at the trading deadline this year by trading Taillon or Cole.
They didn't immediately fire every staff member when he all but demanded it when he reported the "Hoka Hey" email and SEAL training.
They signed a free agent catcher this year that he doesn't like.
They didn't tender an offer to Jeff Karstens.
They haven't touted Hanrahan enough.
They didn't sign a lucrative enough TV deal . . (nevermind that Fox Sports San Diego includes the Las Vegas market - took me all of 90 seconds to find that on the internet).
The Pirates Charities sign blocks part of his view of downtown Pittsburgh.

All in all . . . they aren't doing things the way he would be doing them if he was the Owner, President and General Manager and, let's face it, one person (particularly a person who earns a living second guessing and offering criticism of others) should be able to do the job of three and do so much more effectively.

You left out the part about how they traded two month each of Jack and an injured Freddie. That's when I first noticed a change in the tone of his writing.

It isn't hard to find legitimate reasons to criticize management. That's why I don't understand the ridiculous stuff he's been writing lately.

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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:35 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Looks to me like Dejan does. His column comparing Huntington's drafts to Littlefield's was a pathetic example of comparing apples to oranges. He can't let go of the hoka hey garbage, which nobody cares about. You can't make any sort of positive comment concerning the Pirates on his blog without risking ridicule from Dejan. It's getting to the point where I have a hard time taking anything that he writes about the Pirates seriously.



Nothing these guys do should be compared to Littlefield. If that is the bar, then we are in big trouble.

People do care about the hoka hey garbage...apparently all over baseball. The owner of the team thought enough of it to tell them to knock it off. But looking past that, how about the fact that they hired two guys to run the minor league system that have no baseball teaching experience at this level. Then look at guys when they come up...ridiculously poor baseball fundamentals. Heck, even our best player(who has blazing speed by the way) is a horrible base runner. You see the poor development and then throw this ridiculous hoka hey stuff on top and you have a joke of a player development system.

I won't argue that DK thinks he is always right, and doesn't play well with others when they disagree with him. In this case I think he is taking a lot of criticism from some for pointing out FACTS. It's not like he is making this stuff up. I'm not sure what personal agenda the guy can have with the team he has professed over and over to love. Again, his personality can be grating, but that doesn't mean he has some hidden agenda...


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 Post subject: Re: Dejan's Column Today
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:25 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Looks to me like Dejan does. His column comparing Huntington's drafts to Littlefield's was a pathetic example of comparing apples to oranges. He can't let go of the hoka hey garbage, which nobody cares about. You can't make any sort of positive comment concerning the Pirates on his blog without risking ridicule from Dejan. It's getting to the point where I have a hard time taking anything that he writes about the Pirates seriously.



Nothing these guys do should be compared to Littlefield. If that is the bar, then we are in big trouble.

People do care about the hoka hey garbage...apparently all over baseball.

Who? And among Pirate fans, how many have jumped ship over it? All of the people I hear squawking about it are the same people who squawk about every move the Pirates make.

Quote:
The owner of the team thought enough of it to tell them to knock it off.

Of course he did. It had been made into a PR disaster.

Quote:
But looking past that, how about the fact that they hired two guys to run the minor league system that have no baseball teaching experience at this level. Then look at guys when they come up...ridiculously poor baseball fundamentals. Heck, even our best player(who has blazing speed by the way) is a horrible base runner. You see the poor development and then throw this ridiculous hoka hey stuff on top and you have a joke of a player development system.

All of those Littlefield guys who Dejan used as examples that Huntington couldn't draft are the same guys that were developed primarily under Littlefield. You can't say they're good players on when talking about drafting, then bad players when talking about development.

Quote:
I won't argue that DK thinks he is always right, and doesn't play well with others when they disagree with him. In this case I think he is taking a lot of criticism from some for pointing out FACTS. It's not like he is making this stuff up. I'm not sure what personal agenda the guy can have with the team he has professed over and over to love. Again, his personality can be grating, but that doesn't mean he has some hidden agenda...

His isn't trying to hide his agenda. He wants the whole front office out. I don't have a problem with that; I wouldn't have been upset if the whole crew had been canned at the end of the season. I do have a problem with the dishonest way he presents his case. I hate to call it dishonest, but I don't think that he's stupid, and some of the things that have made it to print were ridiculous.

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