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 Post subject: Craig Biggio
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:27 am 
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What is the consensus here on whether or not he is a first ballot hall of famer?

Biggio has always been my favorite baseball player of all time. I grew up loving the guy, loved his hustle and leadership. Not many baseball players now or 20 years ago would move to 4 different positions for the better of the team the way Biggio did. He had a 5-6 year stretch where he was the best second basemen in the NL and in the years before and after his best seasons he was still solid. Even with me being his biggest fan and following his entire career, I will admit that he was never that slam dunk superstar that everyone slobbered over, but he was a very good baseball player that epitomizes everything that is right about baseball, he could have gone anywhere and signed a big contract in the late 90's but he wanted to stay with the team that drafted him, he is 100% class and in my opinion a lock for the HOF, especially with the controversial figures around him not getting the votes. I had the great privilege of meeting him in his final game at PNC PARK and he shook my hand and signed a jersey of mine (I am not much for autographs, but I had to get his) I told him he was my favorite player of all time and I appreciated the way he played, he simply replied with a "thank you, very much" and went on his way....


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 Post subject: Re: Craig Biggio
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:44 am 
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Well, let's see... every eligible entrant into the HoF (Jeter is active, Rose ineligible, Palmiero roided out) who has 3000 hits has been a first ballot winner. Given that the Hall and voters are desperate to have one entrant, Biggio looks like the most reasonable. While I am a huge Jack Morris fan, he's probably the most controversial candidate ever, and I don't think he's making it in, ever. And with all the attention the non-votes for Clemens, Bonds and Sosa will garner, Biggio is the most likely. And he's worthy of the Hall.

My favorite Biggio factoid: he played his final game at catcher. That's a game I would have loved to see.


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 Post subject: Re: Craig Biggio
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:01 pm 
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Yea I think he is looking like a sure thing with each passing day, and not to be a jerk but he started at catcher in the game before his last game. He started at second in his final game....


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 Post subject: Re: Craig Biggio
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:15 pm 
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Probably 2nd ballot for me, 3000 hits, very nearly 300HR/400SB and 70 career WAR with a 7 year peak period of 42 WAR. He's not Joe Morgan, but he's very good. Actually Lou Whitaker has a higher career WAR.

For me, Bonds and Clemens are 1st ballot and I would put Jeff Bagwell in this year, with Alan Trammell and Tim Raines completing my ballot. O h yeah and a vote for Jose Mesa :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Craig Biggio
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:20 am 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
Probably 2nd ballot for me, 3000 hits, very nearly 300HR/400SB and 70 career WAR with a 7 year peak period of 42 WAR. He's not Joe Morgan, but he's very good. Actually Lou Whitaker has a higher career WAR.

For me, Bonds and Clemens are 1st ballot and I would put Jeff Bagwell in this year, with Alan Trammell and Tim Raines completing my ballot. O h yeah and a vote for Jose Mesa :lol:

So.... steroids don't bother you?


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 Post subject: Re: Craig Biggio
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:25 pm 
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val wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
Probably 2nd ballot for me, 3000 hits, very nearly 300HR/400SB and 70 career WAR with a 7 year peak period of 42 WAR. He's not Joe Morgan, but he's very good. Actually Lou Whitaker has a higher career WAR.

For me, Bonds and Clemens are 1st ballot and I would put Jeff Bagwell in this year, with Alan Trammell and Tim Raines completing my ballot. O h yeah and a vote for Jose Mesa :lol:

So.... steroids don't bother you?

Should they?

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~H. L. Mencken


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 Post subject: Re: Craig Biggio
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:48 pm 
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heres my thoughts on steroids and the HOF..
the HOF is an individual achievement, its based off of skill, hard work and dedication, if you cheated to give yourself an edge than that is simply wrong, it does not take away the great skill you have or had, but it does not give a clear picture of what you were based off of the given skill, hard work and dedication. I know Barry Bonds was great, but when did he start doing steroids, what would have his numbers looked like if he never did do PED's. Sosa is clown from his forgetting to speak english on capital hill to the corked bat that he "accidentily" forgot he had in regular season game, the guy is a liar and benefited greatly from steroids, clemens is another soap opera that is ridiculous. You need to keep players accountable for what is right and wrong, just like life.


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 Post subject: Re: Craig Biggio
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:59 pm 
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Willton wrote:
val wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
Probably 2nd ballot for me, 3000 hits, very nearly 300HR/400SB and 70 career WAR with a 7 year peak period of 42 WAR. He's not Joe Morgan, but he's very good. Actually Lou Whitaker has a higher career WAR.

For me, Bonds and Clemens are 1st ballot and I would put Jeff Bagwell in this year, with Alan Trammell and Tim Raines completing my ballot. O h yeah and a vote for Jose Mesa :lol:

So.... steroids don't bother you?

Should they?

They bother me. Steroid users numbers are going to stay in the record book, since I don't see MLB having the balls to vacate the numbers a la the Tour de France vacating Lance's titles. But players who systematically cheated to increase numbers and gain a competitive edge don't have to belong in the Hall of Fame.


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 Post subject: Re: Craig Biggio
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:24 pm 
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val wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
Probably 2nd ballot for me, 3000 hits, very nearly 300HR/400SB and 70 career WAR with a 7 year peak period of 42 WAR. He's not Joe Morgan, but he's very good. Actually Lou Whitaker has a higher career WAR.

For me, Bonds and Clemens are 1st ballot and I would put Jeff Bagwell in this year, with Alan Trammell and Tim Raines completing my ballot. O h yeah and a vote for Jose Mesa :lol:

So.... steroids don't bother you?


They do to an extent, baseball has had drug use for its entire history, still does. The NFL still has tons of growth hormoe/steroid issues. Humans didn't magically evolve to be 6'5" 350 over a 25 year span.

I discount roid related numbers, but Barry and Rocket are all-time greats by any measure. I wouldn't but McGwire, Palmeiro or Sosa in because those guys are borderline candidates as is when you adjust for offensive environment and then add the roids. They are all 60ish WAR guys and that's the bubble.

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 Post subject: Re: Craig Biggio
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:18 pm 
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val wrote:
Willton wrote:
val wrote:
So.... steroids don't bother you?

Should they?

They bother me. Steroid users numbers are going to stay in the record book, since I don't see MLB having the balls to vacate the numbers a la the Tour de France vacating Lance's titles. But players who systematically cheated to increase numbers and gain a competitive edge don't have to belong in the Hall of Fame.

So what are your thoughts on HOF spitballer Gaylord Perry?

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~H. L. Mencken


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 Post subject: Re: Craig Biggio
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:28 pm 
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Willton wrote:
val wrote:
They bother me. Steroid users numbers are going to stay in the record book, since I don't see MLB having the balls to vacate the numbers a la the Tour de France vacating Lance's titles. But players who systematically cheated to increase numbers and gain a competitive edge don't have to belong in the Hall of Fame.

So what are your thoughts on HOF spitballer Gaylord Perry?

Not a big fan of him, either. Nor Pete Rose.

As BD stated, Bonds and Clemons are all time greats, but their roid-fueled prowess allows them to be in the consideration of greatest ever to play their positions. And I don't want them to be in that conversation.


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 Post subject: Re: Craig Biggio
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:56 pm 
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val wrote:
Willton wrote:
val wrote:
They bother me. Steroid users numbers are going to stay in the record book, since I don't see MLB having the balls to vacate the numbers a la the Tour de France vacating Lance's titles. But players who systematically cheated to increase numbers and gain a competitive edge don't have to belong in the Hall of Fame.

So what are your thoughts on HOF spitballer Gaylord Perry?

Not a big fan of him, either. Nor Pete Rose.

As BD stated, Bonds and Clemons are all time greats, but their roid-fueled prowess allows them to be in the consideration of greatest ever to play their positions. And I don't want them to be in that conversation.

My view: their respective performances speak for themselves. If Bonds and Clemens were cheating, then they should have been caught cheating so as to prevent their historic performances from happening. But just like in the case of Gaylord Perry, nobody decided to do enough to curtail their purported cheating, and they ended up performing in a manner worthy of the Hall of Fame.

If Perry gets to be a HOFer, then so should Bonds and Clemens.

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 Post subject: Re: Craig Biggio
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:56 pm 
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val wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
Probably 2nd ballot for me, 3000 hits, very nearly 300HR/400SB and 70 career WAR with a 7 year peak period of 42 WAR. He's not Joe Morgan, but he's very good. Actually Lou Whitaker has a higher career WAR.

For me, Bonds and Clemens are 1st ballot and I would put Jeff Bagwell in this year, with Alan Trammell and Tim Raines completing my ballot. O h yeah and a vote for Jose Mesa :lol:

So.... steroids don't bother you?

You have proof that Biggio didn't use steroids?

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 Post subject: Re: Craig Biggio
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:58 pm 
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batterup wrote:
heres my thoughts on steroids and the HOF..
the HOF is an individual achievement, its based off of skill, hard work and dedication, if you cheated to give yourself an edge than that is simply wrong, it does not take away the great skill you have or had, but it does not give a clear picture of what you were based off of the given skill, hard work and dedication. I know Barry Bonds was great, but when did he start doing steroids, what would have his numbers looked like if he never did do PED's. Sosa is clown from his forgetting to speak english on capital hill to the corked bat that he "accidentily" forgot he had in regular season game, the guy is a liar and benefited greatly from steroids, clemens is another soap opera that is ridiculous. You need to keep players accountable for what is right and wrong, just like life.

So you would support the removal of all those guys who popped greenies from the HOF, right? And don't forget Gaylord Perry, a self admitted cheater.

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 Post subject: Re: Craig Biggio
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:40 pm 
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no proof on Biggio other than them importance of him not being mentioned in any reports, never mentioned by players as being one of the many individuals to partake in the doping. I would be willing to be he did not, but I dont know just as everyone else does not know.

This was a topic that was praising my favorite baseball player of all time, not to mention him with PED's


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 Post subject: Re: Craig Biggio
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:11 pm 
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batterup wrote:
no proof on Biggio other than them importance of him not being mentioned in any reports, never mentioned by players as being one of the many individuals to partake in the doping. I would be willing to be he did not, but I dont know just as everyone else does not know.

This was a topic that was praising my favorite baseball player of all time, not to mention him with PED's

No problem, but then you decided to post your thoughts concerning PED's. If you didn't care to discuss them, maybe you shouldn't have commented on them.

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 Post subject: Re: Craig Biggio
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:46 am 
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ehh, 3 previous posts had talked about PED's or steroids so I thought I would talk about them, and I said I did want to link PED's with Biggio...


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