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 Post subject: pirates make a trade
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:07 pm 
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http://www.piratesprospects.com/2012/12 ... brera.html


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 Post subject: Re: pirates make a trade
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:13 pm 
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I like this trade. The bucs severely need to stack up on hard throwing lefties in the pen. Maybe he can add some pitches and become a starter at the MLB level here soon. Catchers are expendable.


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 Post subject: Re: pirates make a trade
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:24 am 
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Yep, liked Oliver since his draft days when we somehow passed on him to take Brooks Pounders. I never could figure that one out. You never can have enough power lefties.

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 Post subject: Re: pirates make a trade
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:06 pm 
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Ok, I'm pleased we acquired this guy I've never heard of but, really? We had to give up this other guy I've never heard of? What is NH doing???


Basically, I'm just saying I'll take you guys's word for it when you say you like the trade.

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 Post subject: Re: pirates make a trade
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:09 pm 
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He traded a borderline catcher for a borderline pitcher.

After all these years of focusing on pitching in the draft, we still need pitching. The vast majority of the pitchers drafted are not panning out.

Why in the world didn't we tender Karstens? Still can't figure that one out.


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 Post subject: Re: pirates make a trade
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:58 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
He traded a borderline catcher for a borderline pitcher.

After all these years of focusing on pitching in the draft, we still need pitching. The vast majority of the pitchers drafted are not panning out.

Why in the world didn't we tender Karstens? Still can't figure that one out.


The vast majority of every player drafted in MLB don't pan out.


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 Post subject: Re: pirates make a trade
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:09 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
He traded a borderline catcher for a borderline pitcher.

After all these years of focusing on pitching in the draft, we still need pitching. The vast majority of the pitchers drafted are not panning out.

Why in the world didn't we tender Karstens? Still can't figure that one out.


The vast majority of every player drafted in MLB don't pan out.

That's missing the point. With the draft position the Pirates have had, you need to NOT miss on those guys. Also, they went with the idea of overpaying for guys lower in the draft that were supposed to be good prospects headed to college. Obviously you aren't going to hit on all of those guys, but with that strategy you better hit on more than you miss...and they haven't.

Not tendering Karstens didn't make sense. His price shouldn't have prevented them from still getting other players. And they act like they have a bunch of sure fire rotation guys. What if Burnett starts showing his age. What if McDonald doesn't find his first half self. What if Morton never makes it back. What if McPherson doesn't pan out. There are a lot of potential question marks with this staff, so not tendering a guy who has proved, when healthy, to be a decent middle of the rotation guy doesn't make sense.


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 Post subject: Re: pirates make a trade
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:03 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
rellimie wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
He traded a borderline catcher for a borderline pitcher.

After all these years of focusing on pitching in the draft, we still need pitching. The vast majority of the pitchers drafted are not panning out.

Why in the world didn't we tender Karstens? Still can't figure that one out.


The vast majority of every player drafted in MLB don't pan out.

That's missing the point. With the draft position the Pirates have had, you need to NOT miss on those guys. Also, they went with the idea of overpaying for guys lower in the draft that were supposed to be good prospects headed to college. Obviously you aren't going to hit on all of those guys, but with that strategy you better hit on more than you miss...and they haven't.

Not tendering Karstens didn't make sense. His price shouldn't have prevented them from still getting other players. And they act like they have a bunch of sure fire rotation guys. What if Burnett starts showing his age. What if McDonald doesn't find his first half self. What if Morton never makes it back. What if McPherson doesn't pan out. There are a lot of potential question marks with this staff, so not tendering a guy who has proved, when healthy, to be a decent middle of the rotation guy doesn't make sense.


Two comments
1) No teams hit more than they miss, even on overslot talent. It seems you are missing the point, which is prep players are exceedingly risky, for every one that pans out 5 or more fail.

2) Take a step back and notice that no one is outraged about Karstens except Pirate fans. The consensus from outside sources is a swingman who is not very good or durable. I would have kept him too, but there are plenty of options at the lower end of the SP market. Lets wait until things shake out before getting too excited. Give me Carlos Villanueva or the like with that money and I'll be happy.

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 Post subject: Re: pirates make a trade
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:36 pm 
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I realize that the vast majority of drafted players never make it to the majors. That's true for all teams.

My point is that considering how high the Pirates have drafted, and how they have focused on pitching, and how they have hyped those picks, they sure don't have much to show for it.

We still don't have a proven starter in our rotation who we drafted.


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 Post subject: Re: pirates make a trade
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:50 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
I realize that the vast majority of drafted players never make it to the majors. That's true for all teams.

My point is that considering how high the Pirates have drafted, and how they have focused on pitching, and how they have hyped those picks, they sure don't have much to show for it.

We still don't have a proven starter in our rotation who we drafted.


Very true and Justin Wilson, Phil Irwin, and Vic Black are the only truly promising pitching prospects left from 2008 and 2009. That said the (potential) busts in the pitching prospect status (top 10 rounds or high bonus) are Quinton Miller, Nathan Baker, Zach Dodson, ZVR (still has a shot), Trent Stevenson, and Jeff Inman. With Colton Cain and Brooks Pounders being dealt away. It certainly hasn't been what we hoped for, but I'm not sure its much worse than the norm. What we do know is the 2009 draft class for all its promise is looking very bleak and that is skewing the overall outlook.

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 Post subject: Re: pirates make a trade
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:16 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
I realize that the vast majority of drafted players never make it to the majors. That's true for all teams.

My point is that considering how high the Pirates have drafted, and how they have focused on pitching, and how they have hyped those picks, they sure don't have much to show for it.

We still don't have a proven starter in our rotation who we drafted.


Very true and Justin Wilson, Phil Irwin, and Vic Black are the only truly promising pitching prospects left from 2008 and 2009. That said the (potential) busts in the pitching prospect status (top 10 rounds or high bonus) are Quinton Miller, Nathan Baker, Zach Dodson, ZVR (still has a shot), Trent Stevenson, and Jeff Inman. With Colton Cain and Brooks Pounders being dealt away. It certainly hasn't been what we hoped for, but I'm not sure its much worse than the norm. What we do know is the 2009 draft class for all its promise is looking very bleak and that is skewing the overall outlook.


If the Pirates are going to become consistent winners, they need to do a lot better than "the norm" in the Rule 4 draft. Period. That's Reason #1 why Neal Huntington's and Greg Smith's jobs should be under intense scrutiny.


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 Post subject: Re: pirates make a trade
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:00 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
Two comments
1) No teams hit more than they miss, even on overslot talent. It seems you are missing the point, which is prep players are exceedingly risky, for every one that pans out 5 or more fail.

2) Take a step back and notice that no one is outraged about Karstens except Pirate fans. The consensus from outside sources is a swingman who is not very good or durable. I would have kept him too, but there are plenty of options at the lower end of the SP market. Lets wait until things shake out before getting too excited. Give me Carlos Villanueva or the like with that money and I'll be happy.

See JC's comment above. The pirates have to do much better in the raft. Take Gayo's guys out of the mix and NH and gang would have even more holes.

My point on Karstens is why couldn't we sign him AND go get someone else. What happened to "you can't have enough pitching"?


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 Post subject: Re: pirates make a trade
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:20 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
rellimie wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
He traded a borderline catcher for a borderline pitcher.

After all these years of focusing on pitching in the draft, we still need pitching. The vast majority of the pitchers drafted are not panning out.

Why in the world didn't we tender Karstens? Still can't figure that one out.


The vast majority of every player drafted in MLB don't pan out.

That's missing the point. With the draft position the Pirates have had, you need to NOT miss on those guys. Also, they went with the idea of overpaying for guys lower in the draft that were supposed to be good prospects headed to college. Obviously you aren't going to hit on all of those guys, but with that strategy you better hit on more than you miss...and they haven't.

Not tendering Karstens didn't make sense. His price shouldn't have prevented them from still getting other players. And they act like they have a bunch of sure fire rotation guys. What if Burnett starts showing his age. What if McDonald doesn't find his first half self. What if Morton never makes it back. What if McPherson doesn't pan out. There are a lot of potential question marks with this staff, so not tendering a guy who has proved, when healthy, to be a decent middle of the rotation guy doesn't make sense.


Was the Karstens decision a money thing or was it to keep room on the 40 man roster?


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 Post subject: Re: pirates make a trade
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:25 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
Was the Karstens decision a money thing or was it to keep room on the 40 man roster?

I don't know, but I can't imagine either should've had an effect on their decision.

To be clear, I've never been a big Karstens fan. Generally I don't trust guys who look like they are throwing BP. But I'll be darned if he didn't prove me wrong more often than not....


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