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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:21 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
The Bucs had a need at C. A glaring need. They went out and obtained a catcher that was being courted by the Yankees and the Rangers. They went out and got a catcher who is among the best available catchers. And they spent "market" - at least how many would define "market" - money on him.


I couldn't agree more. Very, very happy with this acquisition. Now, if Tabata can get his head out of his butt, we may have something going for next season. I can't wait!

Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:27 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
Tell me which teams are doing better.


Sure.

St. Louis Cardinals, Cincy Reds, San Francisco Giants, Arizona Diamondbacks, Washington Nationals, Atlanta Braves, Oakland As, Texas Rangers, Kansas City Royals, Toronto Blue Jays, Tampa Bay Rays, Baltimore Orioles, Chicago White Sox, LA Angels.

That's just off the top of my head.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
Your argument is the fallacy of hindsight, mine is realistic.


Nope. The Tony Sanchez pick was questionable and scrutinized WHEN IT WAS MADE.

The PBC's front office competes against other teams' front offices. And NH's front office, now in year six, has failed to get the major league team to the playoffs or put the farm system in the top tier. By doing neither, he's failed.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:29 pm 
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Feel free to respond to this one at your leisure, BD...

Barrys Dopers wrote:
He also reported that the system isn't improved and is not good, both wrong.


Wrong. I've read numerous DK articles noting that the farm system is better than it was in 2007 when NH took over, but nearly good enough given the years of high draft picks and player development. And that's 100% correct.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
DK made a mountain out of a molehill and has been provided facts that the "SEAL" training was not SEAL training and the agency involved has worked with over 150 teams. He refuses to acknowledge his error.


No error at all. The agency worked with ZERO baseball teams. And it's not a "mountain out of a molehill" when baseball front offices, scouts, player agents and numerous other insider baseball people refer to the Pirates' player development system as a "laughingstock." Perception matters, Barrys Dopers, and it does not help the Pittsburgh Baseball Club when prospects are getting injured leaping into ice pools at 6:00 a.m.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
He also never proved anything about management lies regarding the subject.


Unless you believe both Gregory Polanco (through his interpreter) and Jameson Taillon lied, then you're wrong. The PBC told DK that no player was every hurt during these stupid military-style drills or during the pathetic "Hell Week" Kyle Stark initiated. Polanco and Taillon said otherwise. Why would they lie?

Barrys Dopers wrote:
Nutting also did not say to stop the military stuff, he said to focus on baseball, that's not vindication.


Can you read? Here's the statement:

“I believe that our primary responsibility is to develop baseball players to play baseball and win championships at PNC Park. We are not and we should not be a military organization. We should not run a boot-camp environment.

I bolded and italicized the relevant portion, in case you missed it again.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
Being against the move is one thing, calling it idiocy and comparing it to Matt Morris is a entirely different thing.


He made clear that he wasn't comparing Russell to Morris; rather, he was comparing the motives behind those moves. DK believes that NH is on a short leash and that this move reeks of desperation. It's an opinion. I don't necessarily agree with it. But I do have a big problem with the move based on the fact that the Pirates selected a catcher with the #4 overall pick in the 2009 draft. If Greg Smith and Neal Huntington did a better job in the draft from 2008 to 2010, then the Pirates wouldn't need to take a $17 million gamble on a catcher in decline. That's my overarching point.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:47 pm 
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The problem with the TS thing is not just the time it might take to reap the rewards of the pick, but the domino effect of having to wait on (or missing entirely on) the pick.

If the Bucs had taken say... Brett Jackson, then it means that they might not have shelled out $$$ for Tabata and/or traded for Snider. That means that the $$$ used on JT could have been used elsewhere and/or Lincoln could have landed another piece of need (perhaps even Arencibia). Likewise, maybe if the Bucs had taken Wheeler then they take Machado instead of Taillon the next year?

If Russell Martin is the man---and may he prove to be!---then great. It's just that makes TS a wasted asset/commodity when the Pirates could have used a Drew Storen or (fill in the blank) type the last 2-3 years.

It's not quite Moskos/Wieters bad (and really, that's the still the biggest WTF, even over Bullington over Upton), but it's still disappointing.

Paint corners and pound HR's, Russ. And Godspeed, Tony.

But still, damn.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:04 am 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
PirateParrot wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
Every report I've read so far indicates that Russell Martin was "intrigued" by coming to play for a baseball team that included AJ Burnett and the Pirates' young talent. So much for the perception and stigma of "Hoka Hey." Media fueled hysteria, IMO.

As for Tony Sanchez . . . just because he was a #1 signing doesn't mean that he's ready to play. Did they "miss" on him? I don't know. I do know that the front office adopted a strategy that year to not pay huge money to potential draftees because they didn't see a Pedro Alvarez, Jameson Taillon, Garrett Cole or Mark Appel talent that year. By all accounts, he needs more time in Indianapolis. Thus, that is where he should be this year. For now . . time will be split between Martin and The Fort. If Sanchez proves himself ready, then he'll get moved up and the Bucs can try to move The Fort or Martin. Just because Martin is on the team doesn't mean that Sanchez will be relegated to Indy for a full 2 years. It may be ideal for him to be promoted next year and have him learn alongside Martin and then take over as the primary catcher in 2014 after splitting duties in 2013.

The Bucs had a need at C. A glaring need. Even though he is currently my favorite player on the team, I just don't see The Fort being a day in/day out producer. He's a great 2 out of 7 day catcher. So, they went out and got a C. They went out and obtained a catcher that was being courted by the Yankees and the Rangers. They went out and got a catcher who is among the best available catchers. And they spent "market" - at least how many would define "market" - money on him.

1. The Hoka Hey/laughingstock stuff would not make a difference with major league players. When most within the game are laughing at you and your methods and you've been losing for 20 straight years I wouldn't call that media hysteria.

2. Sanchez is 25 and was drafted fourth. He should be in Pittsburgh now. Thus I say he is a failure for our esteemed management team. Could that change? Sure. But the signs aren't good.

3. I agree there was a need for a catcher to team up with Fort. But a .211 hitter for 17 mill isn't a good investment of limited funds IMO.

My big gripe with NH and the gang is they have drafted high for 5 years and don't have nearly enough to show for it. His signings have been horrible at best. He has been hit or miss on trades, which most GM's are. I don't know if it is lack of skill, not wanting to part with ANY prospects, etc. but NH has not shown a willingness to make creative trades to bring in actual talent. So we are left arguing the merits of a .211 hitting, 5 years in decline catcher...


Again "don't have nearly enough to show for it", please define, what is enough, what is realistic, what have other teams gotten. JC is grouping the 2010 draft into this, that's Taillon's draft, an ace in a year would sure change the tally no?

It amazes me that we got the best player on the market for a clear position of need at a fair price and people are still upset?!

C'mon...I'm ok with people thinking it was right to give NH another year. But don't bury your head in the sand... They drafted near the top plus paid over slot for a bunch of those high school guys to get them to sign. That was their big move(one that I'm fine with), but where is the pay off? Tell me where all of these gems are right now. He has Cole and Taillon...period. And you said wouldn't adding an ace make a difference? Well, of course...but picking where they did all those years, shouldn't he yield us at least that for heaven sake???

When there is nothing but crap in a particular year at a certain position it isn't a positive to say we got the best player available at that position. Which, IMO, was Napoli anyway. Again, I'm not saying Martin won't be an upgrade from "the slowest man alive"...I'm saying I'd rather see that money go elsewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:16 am 
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No. 9 wrote:
If Martin is "intrigued" by the young talent, then he must not be convinced that the magically destructive powers of "Hoka Hey" are real. And, if everyone else in the game considers the Pirates' organization to be a laughing stock, then why would Martin be "intrigued" by playing in Pittsburgh?

So you believed what you read in the article? Yet, you seem to think it is "hype" or "hysteria" from the media when they say others think the Pirates ways/organization is a laughingstock? I guess you have a selectivity in what you read and believe.

And, for the record, what did you think he would say upon signing? "I took the money...didn't care about their crappy organization." He had 17 million reasons to sign with the Pirates, and he SHOULD be intrigued...the PIrates do have young talent to build around. That is all separated from the imbeciles running the minor league system and shouldn't have an effect on MLB players looking to come here. Funny...you like to laugh off the "Hoka Hey" stuff with your comments as being over hyped, etc...yet the OWNER OF THE TEAM said that stuff was going to be stopped because it was wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:36 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
I know I've been beating this drum for a while now(sorry for the overkill) but this front office should have been cleaned out.

This deal is a perfect example of why...

Tony Sanchez is deemed not ready, apparently being at least 2 years away. That would make him 27 if and when he ever gets here. Another wasted draft pick by this front office. So they overpay for a guy who hit .211 last year... .211!! Martin has declined for 5 straight seasons, with the exception of his slugging pct the last two years...and that is due to playing in Yankee Stadium. He will be better than Barajas...so would be about a billion other people. I'd be curious how seriously they pursued other options through FA or trade. Or did they just put all their eggs in this basket.

But at the end of the day this front office has signed, and overpaid, for another player in decline while putting a spotlight on how disappointing their draft and development has been(referring to Sanchez).

Most development programs don't account for a guy taking a fastball to the face twice.

Maybe it's apparent to you that Sanchez is at least two years away, but it isn't apparent to me, and I doubt that the Pirates feel that way, either. Neither Martin nor McHenry has a no-trade clause, you know.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:44 pm 
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PP, my head is not in the sand, I called for a change in front office too. To JC, you list a ton of teams that have won, but show me their draft productivity from 2008-2010, the time frame you listed. You also say we don't have a top quality system, I disagree, I wager we are indeed a top 10 system. My argument stems from unrealistic expectations that you guys seem to have. I would like to see actual evidence of failure at an unacceptable rate. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe NH and Co are doing worse than everyone else, but I don't think its true. I think they are doing an average job.

BTW, did you see Napoli get $39 million for 3 years today? Napoli is 31, can't catch, and is coming off a 2.0 WAR season. Are we still upset with Martin's contract?

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:00 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
To JC, you list a ton of teams that have won, but show me their draft productivity from 2008-2010, the time frame you listed.


The Nats have an obvious edge, as do the Royals, and the Giants have infused their system with enough talent to obtain pieces through trades and back up their major league team with quality depth. Again, that's just off the top of my head.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
You also say we don't have a top quality system, I disagree, I wager we are indeed a top 10 system.


Wrong. I said we don't have a "top tier system." I don't consider being in the top 1/3 of baseball teams to be top tier. That would be top 5. And I believe that's where the Pirates should be after years of drafting at the top.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
My argument stems from unrealistic expectations that you guys seem to have. I would like to see actual evidence of failure at an unacceptable rate. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe NH and Co are doing worse than everyone else, but I don't think its true. I think they are doing an average job.


If you think they're doing "average," then you should agree they need to be replaced. "Average" shouldn't be good enough, especially for a team behind the financial 8-ball. The Pirates need a well above average front office to become consistently competitive.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
BTW, did you see Napoli get $39 million for 3 years today? Napoli is 31, can't catch, and is coming off a 2.0 WAR season. Are we still upset with Martin's contract?


One bad contract does not justify another bad contract. And to be clear, I don't think the Martin deal is awful in abstentia; rather, I think it's bad in the context of the Pirates' limited resources and lack of catching options in the minor leagues.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:06 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
To JC, you list a ton of teams that have won, but show me their draft productivity from 2008-2010, the time frame you listed.


The Nats have an obvious edge, as do the Royals, and the Giants have infused their system with enough talent to obtain pieces through trades and back up their major league team with quality depth. Again, that's just off the top of my head.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
You also say we don't have a top quality system, I disagree, I wager we are indeed a top 10 system.


Wrong. I said we don't have a "top tier system." I don't consider being in the top 1/3 of baseball teams to be top tier. That would be top 5. And I believe that's where the Pirates should be after years of drafting at the top.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
My argument stems from unrealistic expectations that you guys seem to have. I would like to see actual evidence of failure at an unacceptable rate. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe NH and Co are doing worse than everyone else, but I don't think its true. I think they are doing an average job.


If you think they're doing "average," then you should agree they need to be replaced. "Average" shouldn't be good enough, especially for a team behind the financial 8-ball. The Pirates need a well above average front office to become consistently competitive.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
BTW, did you see Napoli get $39 million for 3 years today? Napoli is 31, can't catch, and is coming off a 2.0 WAR season. Are we still upset with Martin's contract?


One bad contract does not justify another bad contract. And to be clear, I don't think the Martin deal is awful in abstentia; rather, I think it's bad in the context of the Pirates' limited resources and lack of catching options in the minor leagues.


I said I wanted them fired months ago, what do you want!

Again, you list teams, please show me that the Pirates draft productivity is in the bottom half of MLB. Its not about being 4th best, its about being terrible as you and DK suggest. BTW, the Pirates obtained enough talent to infuse blah blah blah with the Wandy trade.

Martin's contract is not a bad contract, there is no sane argument that it is. You are being biased by past history with this club. You talk about absentia, if Napoli's price is $13 million that sets the market, Martin is a better catcher and is cheaper. We have limited resources and we need to use those on our primary needs. If C and SP weren't our biggest needs, what was?! If the move precludes getting a SP then OK, but I don't think it does at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:08 pm 
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It could just be that I'm really hopeful that the Bucs do right, but I'm starting to come around on this Martin signing.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:40 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
If C and SP weren't our biggest needs, what was?! If the move precludes getting a SP then OK, but I don't think it does at all.


I'd say SS was an even bigger need than C. McKenry was fairly decent last year, while Barmes was an offensive black hole.

Cue Espinosa!


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:45 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
If C and SP weren't our biggest needs, what was?! If the move precludes getting a SP then OK, but I don't think it does at all.


I'd say SS was an even bigger need than C. McKenry was fairly decent last year, while Barmes was an offensive black hole.

Cue Espinosa!


Homer: Hmm. Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

I wouldn't deal Marte for Espinosa, but I would not hate the idea. Barmes' glove outweighs the need for me. McKenry did hit, but he is not a good defensive C.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:06 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
If C and SP weren't our biggest needs, what was?! If the move precludes getting a SP then OK, but I don't think it does at all.


I'd say SS was an even bigger need than C. McKenry was fairly decent last year, while Barmes was an offensive black hole.

Cue Espinosa!


How is SS a need? So many people put SS at the top of the list for next year and I don't get it. Is it a long term need yes, is it a immediate need for 2013, absolutely not!

Clint Barmes did an adequate job the 2nd half of last season (.255/.318/.348/.666), 1.2 WAR for the season for the 8th hitter in the lineup. If you compare that to what is out there, I'm not sure how you intend to upgrade that position. Your options are:

Stephen Drew - .228/.318/.363/.681 (2nd half), -0.1 WAR for the season
Ronny Cedeno - 259 ./.310/.481/.791 (2nd half), 0.3 WAR for the season

Yunel Escobar is also available via trade, his 2nd half numbers are (.250/.297/.357/.654), 2.5 WAR for the season.

So you tell me where the upgrade is or is needed? Barmes' defense is just as good if not better that the guys on this list. You can cry all you want about his 1st half numbers but his 1st half slump did not hurt this team nor do I think he will have that slump next year. My prediction is he does what he did the 2nd half and I am fine with that from a SS with above average D.

Needs are obvious:

C - Martin is a great sign and a bargin if you look at the cost for players this off season.

SP - I'd love for them to sign someone or trade for someone but I'm not opposed to Cole being the guy to solve this problem if he's ready.

Leadoff Hitter - Not sure how or if this is going to happen unless Jones or Tabata are traded. This is the one spot though that I would say a new SS could come into play is if the new SS is also a high OBP guy that bats leadoff.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:14 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
Leadoff Hitter - Not sure how or if this is going to happen unless Jones or Tabata are traded. This is the one spot though that I would say a new SS could come into play is if the new SS is also a high OBP guy that bats leadoff.


I said it last year and if Tabata or Marte arent the answer then go with Neil Walker.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:17 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
rellimie wrote:
Leadoff Hitter - Not sure how or if this is going to happen unless Jones or Tabata are traded. This is the one spot though that I would say a new SS could come into play is if the new SS is also a high OBP guy that bats leadoff.


I said it last year and if Tabata or Marte arent the answer then go with Neil Walker.


Didn't Clint Hurdle flirt with the idea of Neil Walker leading off for us and joked about him being the biggest leadoff hitter in the majors? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:52 pm 
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CashInFist wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
rellimie wrote:
Leadoff Hitter - Not sure how or if this is going to happen unless Jones or Tabata are traded. This is the one spot though that I would say a new SS could come into play is if the new SS is also a high OBP guy that bats leadoff.


I said it last year and if Tabata or Marte arent the answer then go with Neil Walker.


Didn't Clint Hurdle flirt with the idea of Neil Walker leading off for us and joked about him being the biggest leadoff hitter in the majors? :lol:


I want a leadoff hitter who gets on base and he is the best option minus McCutchen. I could care less about his size as a leadoff hitter.

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