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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:34 am 
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Catcher....check

Now on to a starting pitcher.

Then lead off hitter.


Or vise-versa.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:42 am 
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I like this move...it's not a huge upgrade, but it's an upgrade and the two years gives Sanchez plenty of time to get it together...


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:00 am 
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No. 9 wrote:
2 year deal? Outstanding.

I'm relieved. The rumored three year deal would have been a very bad idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:15 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
2 year deal? Outstanding.

I'm relieved. The rumored three year deal would have been a very bad idea.


Agreed. I can live with this. Hopefully the new TV revenue results in an increase in payroll and this contract looks like a bargain.

Now go get a SP or 2 and a couple of arms for the pen.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:57 am 
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I don't really like it but I agree on the two year sentiments.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:16 am 
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full name: Russell Nathan Jeanson Coltrane Martin, Jr. (born February 15, 1983), currently 29 years old...

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:23 am 
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If he can be excellent defensively, hit about 20 home runs per year, and get his OBP over .325, then I'll be happy with it. But that's the baseline for Martin to be worth $8.5 million per annum.

Now, please tender Jeff Karstens, NH...


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:28 am 
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No. 9 wrote:
No. 12 likens it to Littlefield's acquisition of Matt Morris.


I saw that tweet. Ridiculous comparison. Martin may be an overpay, but he hasn't lost all value. Martin's WAR over the last three years: 1.8 (2010), 2.4 (2011), 1.5 (2012). It's reasonable to believe that Martin can come it at a 2+ WAR for one of the two years he's with the Pirates.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:32 am 
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Hey! Both Russell Martin and Michael McKenry wear #55. This signing therefore has the potential to tear the clubhouse apart. WHO WILL WEAR #55?

Based on this alone, terrible signing.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:37 am 
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This is a better and more complete explanation of DK's comparison:

http://blog.triblive.com/dejan-kovacevi ... tt-morris/

I still don't fully agree with him, but it's a reasonable opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:40 am 
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NOTE:

For those who think DK does nothing but bash the Pirates' moves, he praised (rather effusively) both the Wandy Rogriguez trade and A.J. Burnett acquisition --

http://triblive.com/sports/columnists/2 ... z2Cboj4hyy

http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sp ... z2Cboj4hyy


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:43 am 
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Tim Williams (notorious Pirates front office hater that he is) doesn't like the deal:

http://www.piratesprospects.com/2012/11 ... .html?wt=4

He also makes the same point DK does about potential replacements and mistakes in player drafting/development leading to the signing.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:29 pm 
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I know I've been beating this drum for a while now(sorry for the overkill) but this front office should have been cleaned out.

This deal is a perfect example of why...

Tony Sanchez is deemed not ready, apparently being at least 2 years away. That would make him 27 if and when he ever gets here. Another wasted draft pick by this front office. So they overpay for a guy who hit .211 last year... .211!! Martin has declined for 5 straight seasons, with the exception of his slugging pct the last two years...and that is due to playing in Yankee Stadium. He will be better than Barajas...so would be about a billion other people. I'd be curious how seriously they pursued other options through FA or trade. Or did they just put all their eggs in this basket.

But at the end of the day this front office has signed, and overpaid, for another player in decline while putting a spotlight on how disappointing their draft and development has been(referring to Sanchez).


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:30 pm 
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I don't agree with DK (shocker) or Tim on this one. They both are trying to minimize Martin's skills by focusing on his batting average (DK) and a guess about how he will translate to PNC (TW). Neither argument is fair to Martin the player. We just upgraded the catcher position from a negative WAR player to a 2-3 win player. TW's whole argument is based on park factors, but WAR is context, league, and park neutral. This is a huge upgrade and the two year term makes it looke very good for us.

Jeff Sullivan has a very good review - http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.ph ... -baseball/

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:32 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
I know I've been beating this drum for a while now(sorry for the overkill) but this front office should have been cleaned out.

This deal is a perfect example of why...

Tony Sanchez is deemed not ready, apparently being at least 2 years away. That would make him 27 if and when he ever gets here. Another wasted draft pick by this front office. So they overpay for a guy who hit .211 last year... .211!! Martin has declined for 5 straight seasons, with the exception of his slugging pct the last two years...and that is due to playing in Yankee Stadium. He will be better than Barajas...so would be about a billion other people. I'd be curious how seriously they pursued other options through FA or trade. Or did they just put all their eggs in this basket.

But at the end of the day this front office has signed, and overpaid, for another player in decline while putting a spotlight on how disappointing their draft and development has been(referring to Sanchez).


This does nothing to Tony Sanchez except buy him a full year at AAA, if he hits (which I think he will) you can always make a trade. This is also not an overpay, a 2.5 WAR player, which Martin is should cost $12-13 million a year.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:46 pm 
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Also, don't forget the Bucs employ Dan Fox and he likely has access to proprietary catcher defense numbers involving pitch framing (which Martin scores highly) and other skills. I think Fox had a lot to do with their valuation of Clint Barmes defense last offseason.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:52 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
Also, don't forget the Bucs employ Dan Fox and he likely has access to proprietary catcher defense numbers involving pitch framing (which Martin scores highly) and other skills. I think Fox had a lot to do with their valuation of Clint Barmes defense last offseason.

Dan Fox is a brilliant guy, and I was thrilled when the Pirates hired him. I'm pretty unenthusiastic about the Martin deal, but if this signing has Fox's earmarks on it, then I'm willing to give Martin the benefit of the doubt.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:28 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
PirateParrot wrote:
I know I've been beating this drum for a while now(sorry for the overkill) but this front office should have been cleaned out.

This deal is a perfect example of why...

Tony Sanchez is deemed not ready, apparently being at least 2 years away. That would make him 27 if and when he ever gets here. Another wasted draft pick by this front office. So they overpay for a guy who hit .211 last year... .211!! Martin has declined for 5 straight seasons, with the exception of his slugging pct the last two years...and that is due to playing in Yankee Stadium. He will be better than Barajas...so would be about a billion other people. I'd be curious how seriously they pursued other options through FA or trade. Or did they just put all their eggs in this basket.

But at the end of the day this front office has signed, and overpaid, for another player in decline while putting a spotlight on how disappointing their draft and development has been(referring to Sanchez).


This does nothing to Tony Sanchez except buy him a full year at AAA, if he hits (which I think he will) you can always make a trade. This is also not an overpay, a 2.5 WAR player, which Martin is should cost $12-13 million a year.


Russell Martin hasn't registered a 2.5 WAR since 2008. His last three years came in at 1.8, 2.4 and 1.5. Given his relative decline, 2.5 WAR is his ceiling, 1.0 WAR is probably his floor, and 1.5-2.0 is where he'll likely slot.

Also, it speaks volumes about Tony Sanchez, who, as a top-5 draft pick, should be able to provide that WAR (or better) at much better value for his age 25 season. If Sanchez doesn't get to the majors -- as a CATCHER -- until age 26 or 27, then he's not a real prospect.

Signing Martin is absolutely a result of Greg Smith's (and Neal Huntington's) failures in drafting and developing players.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:44 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
PirateParrot wrote:
I know I've been beating this drum for a while now(sorry for the overkill) but this front office should have been cleaned out.

This deal is a perfect example of why...

Tony Sanchez is deemed not ready, apparently being at least 2 years away. That would make him 27 if and when he ever gets here. Another wasted draft pick by this front office. So they overpay for a guy who hit .211 last year... .211!! Martin has declined for 5 straight seasons, with the exception of his slugging pct the last two years...and that is due to playing in Yankee Stadium. He will be better than Barajas...so would be about a billion other people. I'd be curious how seriously they pursued other options through FA or trade. Or did they just put all their eggs in this basket.

But at the end of the day this front office has signed, and overpaid, for another player in decline while putting a spotlight on how disappointing their draft and development has been(referring to Sanchez).


This does nothing to Tony Sanchez except buy him a full year at AAA, if he hits (which I think he will) you can always make a trade. This is also not an overpay, a 2.5 WAR player, which Martin is should cost $12-13 million a year.


Russell Martin hasn't registered a 2.5 WAR since 2008. His last three years came in at 1.8, 2.4 and 1.5. Given his relative decline, 2.5 WAR is his ceiling, 1.0 WAR is probably his floor, and 1.5-2.0 is where he'll likely slot.

Also, it speaks volumes about Tony Sanchez, who, as a top-5 draft pick, should be able to provide that WAR (or better) at much better value for his age 25 season. If Sanchez doesn't get to the majors -- as a CATCHER -- until age 26 or 27, then he's not a real prospect.

Signing Martin is absolutely a result of Greg Smith's (and Neal Huntington's) failures in drafting and developing players.


There you go using baseball reference and its inadequate data, Fangraphs please. Russell's WAR has been 2.2 (in only 97 games), 3.0, 2.2 versus Barajas's -0.2 last year, a 2.5 WAR increase. If you want to use BR WAR then Barajas was -1.0 last year, whic is still a 2.5 WAR increase. NH got 2.5 wins for $8.5 million a year versus Rod's $4 million. There is no rationale argument that NH didn't add talent to the organization at a fair price with this move. People complain when we don't spend, they complain when we do. This isn't a mid-30's has been move.

For the trade for Arencibia crowd, Russell's 2.2 WAR vs. JP's 1.3 is close, but we have seen the bad defense, bat first C before in Pittsburgh. I'll take the glove at the position particularly when Martin had a better wRC+ (95 vs 89) than JP anyway. Martin's worst season in MLB he had an wRC+ of 87, WAR of 1.7. Its not even close.

I agree that the relative miss on Tony Sanchez caused this need, but plenty of team's missed in the 2009 draft. Its a failure, but not a failure in a vacuum. Failure is the norm in the MLB draft, even at #4 overall in a bad draft class. I still think Sanchez is a MLB catcher, if he hits you can always trade Martin on this affordable deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:46 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
NOTE:

For those who think DK does nothing but bash the Pirates' moves, he praised (rather effusively) both the Wandy Rogriguez trade and A.J. Burnett acquisition --

http://triblive.com/sports/columnists/2 ... z2Cboj4hyy

http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sp ... z2Cboj4hyy


That was before the collapse when Hoka Hey became his mantra. The collapse sealed him in this current state of everything the Bucs do is wrong and they have done nothing well. He is dead wrong on the farm system.

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