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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:40 am 
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NOTE:

For those who think DK does nothing but bash the Pirates' moves, he praised (rather effusively) both the Wandy Rogriguez trade and A.J. Burnett acquisition --

http://triblive.com/sports/columnists/2 ... z2Cboj4hyy

http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sp ... z2Cboj4hyy


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:43 am 
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Tim Williams (notorious Pirates front office hater that he is) doesn't like the deal:

http://www.piratesprospects.com/2012/11 ... .html?wt=4

He also makes the same point DK does about potential replacements and mistakes in player drafting/development leading to the signing.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:29 pm 
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I know I've been beating this drum for a while now(sorry for the overkill) but this front office should have been cleaned out.

This deal is a perfect example of why...

Tony Sanchez is deemed not ready, apparently being at least 2 years away. That would make him 27 if and when he ever gets here. Another wasted draft pick by this front office. So they overpay for a guy who hit .211 last year... .211!! Martin has declined for 5 straight seasons, with the exception of his slugging pct the last two years...and that is due to playing in Yankee Stadium. He will be better than Barajas...so would be about a billion other people. I'd be curious how seriously they pursued other options through FA or trade. Or did they just put all their eggs in this basket.

But at the end of the day this front office has signed, and overpaid, for another player in decline while putting a spotlight on how disappointing their draft and development has been(referring to Sanchez).


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:30 pm 
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I don't agree with DK (shocker) or Tim on this one. They both are trying to minimize Martin's skills by focusing on his batting average (DK) and a guess about how he will translate to PNC (TW). Neither argument is fair to Martin the player. We just upgraded the catcher position from a negative WAR player to a 2-3 win player. TW's whole argument is based on park factors, but WAR is context, league, and park neutral. This is a huge upgrade and the two year term makes it looke very good for us.

Jeff Sullivan has a very good review - http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.ph ... -baseball/

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:32 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
I know I've been beating this drum for a while now(sorry for the overkill) but this front office should have been cleaned out.

This deal is a perfect example of why...

Tony Sanchez is deemed not ready, apparently being at least 2 years away. That would make him 27 if and when he ever gets here. Another wasted draft pick by this front office. So they overpay for a guy who hit .211 last year... .211!! Martin has declined for 5 straight seasons, with the exception of his slugging pct the last two years...and that is due to playing in Yankee Stadium. He will be better than Barajas...so would be about a billion other people. I'd be curious how seriously they pursued other options through FA or trade. Or did they just put all their eggs in this basket.

But at the end of the day this front office has signed, and overpaid, for another player in decline while putting a spotlight on how disappointing their draft and development has been(referring to Sanchez).


This does nothing to Tony Sanchez except buy him a full year at AAA, if he hits (which I think he will) you can always make a trade. This is also not an overpay, a 2.5 WAR player, which Martin is should cost $12-13 million a year.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:46 pm 
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Also, don't forget the Bucs employ Dan Fox and he likely has access to proprietary catcher defense numbers involving pitch framing (which Martin scores highly) and other skills. I think Fox had a lot to do with their valuation of Clint Barmes defense last offseason.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:52 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
Also, don't forget the Bucs employ Dan Fox and he likely has access to proprietary catcher defense numbers involving pitch framing (which Martin scores highly) and other skills. I think Fox had a lot to do with their valuation of Clint Barmes defense last offseason.

Dan Fox is a brilliant guy, and I was thrilled when the Pirates hired him. I'm pretty unenthusiastic about the Martin deal, but if this signing has Fox's earmarks on it, then I'm willing to give Martin the benefit of the doubt.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:28 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
PirateParrot wrote:
I know I've been beating this drum for a while now(sorry for the overkill) but this front office should have been cleaned out.

This deal is a perfect example of why...

Tony Sanchez is deemed not ready, apparently being at least 2 years away. That would make him 27 if and when he ever gets here. Another wasted draft pick by this front office. So they overpay for a guy who hit .211 last year... .211!! Martin has declined for 5 straight seasons, with the exception of his slugging pct the last two years...and that is due to playing in Yankee Stadium. He will be better than Barajas...so would be about a billion other people. I'd be curious how seriously they pursued other options through FA or trade. Or did they just put all their eggs in this basket.

But at the end of the day this front office has signed, and overpaid, for another player in decline while putting a spotlight on how disappointing their draft and development has been(referring to Sanchez).


This does nothing to Tony Sanchez except buy him a full year at AAA, if he hits (which I think he will) you can always make a trade. This is also not an overpay, a 2.5 WAR player, which Martin is should cost $12-13 million a year.


Russell Martin hasn't registered a 2.5 WAR since 2008. His last three years came in at 1.8, 2.4 and 1.5. Given his relative decline, 2.5 WAR is his ceiling, 1.0 WAR is probably his floor, and 1.5-2.0 is where he'll likely slot.

Also, it speaks volumes about Tony Sanchez, who, as a top-5 draft pick, should be able to provide that WAR (or better) at much better value for his age 25 season. If Sanchez doesn't get to the majors -- as a CATCHER -- until age 26 or 27, then he's not a real prospect.

Signing Martin is absolutely a result of Greg Smith's (and Neal Huntington's) failures in drafting and developing players.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:44 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
PirateParrot wrote:
I know I've been beating this drum for a while now(sorry for the overkill) but this front office should have been cleaned out.

This deal is a perfect example of why...

Tony Sanchez is deemed not ready, apparently being at least 2 years away. That would make him 27 if and when he ever gets here. Another wasted draft pick by this front office. So they overpay for a guy who hit .211 last year... .211!! Martin has declined for 5 straight seasons, with the exception of his slugging pct the last two years...and that is due to playing in Yankee Stadium. He will be better than Barajas...so would be about a billion other people. I'd be curious how seriously they pursued other options through FA or trade. Or did they just put all their eggs in this basket.

But at the end of the day this front office has signed, and overpaid, for another player in decline while putting a spotlight on how disappointing their draft and development has been(referring to Sanchez).


This does nothing to Tony Sanchez except buy him a full year at AAA, if he hits (which I think he will) you can always make a trade. This is also not an overpay, a 2.5 WAR player, which Martin is should cost $12-13 million a year.


Russell Martin hasn't registered a 2.5 WAR since 2008. His last three years came in at 1.8, 2.4 and 1.5. Given his relative decline, 2.5 WAR is his ceiling, 1.0 WAR is probably his floor, and 1.5-2.0 is where he'll likely slot.

Also, it speaks volumes about Tony Sanchez, who, as a top-5 draft pick, should be able to provide that WAR (or better) at much better value for his age 25 season. If Sanchez doesn't get to the majors -- as a CATCHER -- until age 26 or 27, then he's not a real prospect.

Signing Martin is absolutely a result of Greg Smith's (and Neal Huntington's) failures in drafting and developing players.


There you go using baseball reference and its inadequate data, Fangraphs please. Russell's WAR has been 2.2 (in only 97 games), 3.0, 2.2 versus Barajas's -0.2 last year, a 2.5 WAR increase. If you want to use BR WAR then Barajas was -1.0 last year, whic is still a 2.5 WAR increase. NH got 2.5 wins for $8.5 million a year versus Rod's $4 million. There is no rationale argument that NH didn't add talent to the organization at a fair price with this move. People complain when we don't spend, they complain when we do. This isn't a mid-30's has been move.

For the trade for Arencibia crowd, Russell's 2.2 WAR vs. JP's 1.3 is close, but we have seen the bad defense, bat first C before in Pittsburgh. I'll take the glove at the position particularly when Martin had a better wRC+ (95 vs 89) than JP anyway. Martin's worst season in MLB he had an wRC+ of 87, WAR of 1.7. Its not even close.

I agree that the relative miss on Tony Sanchez caused this need, but plenty of team's missed in the 2009 draft. Its a failure, but not a failure in a vacuum. Failure is the norm in the MLB draft, even at #4 overall in a bad draft class. I still think Sanchez is a MLB catcher, if he hits you can always trade Martin on this affordable deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:46 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
NOTE:

For those who think DK does nothing but bash the Pirates' moves, he praised (rather effusively) both the Wandy Rogriguez trade and A.J. Burnett acquisition --

http://triblive.com/sports/columnists/2 ... z2Cboj4hyy

http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sp ... z2Cboj4hyy


That was before the collapse when Hoka Hey became his mantra. The collapse sealed him in this current state of everything the Bucs do is wrong and they have done nothing well. He is dead wrong on the farm system.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:06 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:

There you go using baseball reference and its inadequate data, Fangraphs please. Russell's WAR has been 2.2 (in only 97 games), 3.0, 2.2 versus Barajas's -0.2 last year, a 2.5 WAR increase. If you want to use BR WAR then Barajas was -1.0 last year, whic is still a 2.5 WAR increase. NH got 2.5 wins for $8.5 million a year versus Rod's $4 million. There is no rationale argument that NH didn't add talent to the organization at a fair price with this move. People complain when we don't spend, they complain when we do. This isn't a mid-30's has been move.

For the trade for Arencibia crowd, Russell's 2.2 WAR vs. JP's 1.3 is close, but we have seen the bad defense, bat first C before in Pittsburgh. I'll take the glove at the position particularly when Martin had a better wRC+ (95 vs 89) than JP anyway. Martin's worst season in MLB he had an wRC+ of 87, WAR of 1.7. Its not even close.

I agree that the relative miss on Tony Sanchez caused this need, but plenty of team's missed in the 2009 draft. Its a failure, but not a failure in a vacuum. Failure is the norm in the MLB draft, even at #4 overall in a bad draft class. I still think Sanchez is a MLB catcher, if he hits you can always trade Martin on this affordable deal.

I'd rather have a guy like Arencibia(who may improve) AND a good starting pitcher that the Martin money could go to, rather than spend it all on a catcher who has been in decline for 5 straight years. I know we aren't allowed to speak about batting average anymore, but I'm sorry....211 is horrible and his OBP was not good last year and has been in decline for 5 years as well. His defensive skills are better than Barajas, but aren't likely to get any better at this point in his career. So this guy isn't in his mid 30's, but he has been in decline for 5 straight seasons. This was money not well spent...sorry. I'm thrilled they were willing to spend the money, but not on this.

As for Sanchez and missing in the draft...the Pirates can't afford to miss. And many teams did not miss in that draft as listed earlier in this thread. They have been abysmal in drafting and developing, and they couple it with bad signings year after year. If Martin turns it around I'll be thrilled because I'm a Pirate fan...but I'm not going to hold my breath.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:35 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
There you go using baseball reference and its inadequate data, Fangraphs please. Russell's WAR has been 2.2 (in only 97 games), 3.0, 2.2 versus Barajas's -0.2 last year, a 2.5 WAR increase. If you want to use BR WAR then Barajas was -1.0 last year, whic is still a 2.5 WAR increase. NH got 2.5 wins for $8.5 million a year versus Rod's $4 million.


You're assuming that Russell's performance, which has been in decline, won't decline further. On what are you basing that assumption?

Also, the fangraphs article to which you cited includes a long discussion of "pitch framing" and notes that Russell *might* be a good deal for the Pirates if the nascent data relating to pitch framing (and its potential transferability from team to team) is accurate. It seems an unwise move for the Pirates to spend $8.5 million per year on a power-hitting catcher whose offensive and defensive skills have been in fairly steady decline.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
There is no rationale argument that NH didn't add talent to the organization at a fair price with this move. People complain when we don't spend, they complain when we do. This isn't a mid-30's has been move.


My argument (and DK's) is not that the Pirates don't spend any money, but that they don't spend money WISELY. Time will tell with this move, but $17 million over two years for a guy in decline and whose primary value may be defense does not strike me as a great signing; rather, it strikes me as a desperate one.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
I agree that the relative miss on Tony Sanchez caused this need, but plenty of team's missed in the 2009 draft. Its a failure, but not a failure in a vacuum. Failure is the norm in the MLB draft, even at #4 overall in a bad draft class. I still think Sanchez is a MLB catcher, if he hits you can always trade Martin on this affordable deal.


C'mon. AT THE TIME people questioned the selection of Sanchez. This isn't all hindsight. If you don't think the NH/Greg Smith regime has struggled in the draft, then you're not paying attention. Look at the Pirates' best prospects -- outside of Cole and Taillon, you're looking at Rene Gayo guys (Starling Marte, Alen Hanson, Gregory Polanco, Luis Heredia). There should be a LOT more there from the 2008, 2009, 2010 drafts ready to help the Pirates win...


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:40 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
NOTE:

For those who think DK does nothing but bash the Pirates' moves, he praised (rather effusively) both the Wandy Rogriguez trade and A.J. Burnett acquisition --

http://triblive.com/sports/columnists/2 ... z2Cboj4hyy

http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sp ... z2Cboj4hyy


That was before the collapse when Hoka Hey became his mantra. The collapse sealed him in this current state of everything the Bucs do is wrong and they have done nothing well. He is dead wrong on the farm system.


That's an inaccurate generalization. DK rightly reported on a dumb internal development tactic, noted that team officials LIED to him about players getting hurt during military-style drills, and ended up being vindicated by the OWNER of the team who issued an order to NH's crew to stop the military crap.

The collapse SHOULD cause all fans to question the front office, and each acquisition/transaction should be judged on its own merits. Do you think DK would rail against the Pirates if they traded for Giancarlo Stanton? Of course not. Being against the Russell signing is a perfectly legitimate position, and one also championed by Tim Williams (a solid baseball commentator).


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:41 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:

There you go using baseball reference and its inadequate data, Fangraphs please. Russell's WAR has been 2.2 (in only 97 games), 3.0, 2.2 versus Barajas's -0.2 last year, a 2.5 WAR increase. If you want to use BR WAR then Barajas was -1.0 last year, whic is still a 2.5 WAR increase. NH got 2.5 wins for $8.5 million a year versus Rod's $4 million. There is no rationale argument that NH didn't add talent to the organization at a fair price with this move. People complain when we don't spend, they complain when we do. This isn't a mid-30's has been move.

For the trade for Arencibia crowd, Russell's 2.2 WAR vs. JP's 1.3 is close, but we have seen the bad defense, bat first C before in Pittsburgh. I'll take the glove at the position particularly when Martin had a better wRC+ (95 vs 89) than JP anyway. Martin's worst season in MLB he had an wRC+ of 87, WAR of 1.7. Its not even close.

I agree that the relative miss on Tony Sanchez caused this need, but plenty of team's missed in the 2009 draft. Its a failure, but not a failure in a vacuum. Failure is the norm in the MLB draft, even at #4 overall in a bad draft class. I still think Sanchez is a MLB catcher, if he hits you can always trade Martin on this affordable deal.

I'd rather have a guy like Arencibia(who may improve) AND a good starting pitcher that the Martin money could go to, rather than spend it all on a catcher who has been in decline for 5 straight years. I know we aren't allowed to speak about batting average anymore, but I'm sorry....211 is horrible and his OBP was not good last year and has been in decline for 5 years as well. His defensive skills are better than Barajas, but aren't likely to get any better at this point in his career. So this guy isn't in his mid 30's, but he has been in decline for 5 straight seasons. This was money not well spent...sorry. I'm thrilled they were willing to spend the money, but not on this.

As for Sanchez and missing in the draft...the Pirates can't afford to miss. And many teams did not miss in that draft as listed earlier in this thread. They have been abysmal in drafting and developing, and they couple it with bad signings year after year. If Martin turns it around I'll be thrilled because I'm a Pirate fan...but I'm not going to hold my breath.


But Martin doesn't need to turn anything around, a 2 WAR season will be more than good enough to justify the move and help the team. I don't see how adding a worse catcher is better for the Pirates than adding a better catcher.

I also don't understand the either/or mentality when it comes to C and SP. We have money to do both. The Bucs can afford $70 million with the Root deal and increased attendance. They are near $65 million with Martin's deal, but a simple non-tender or trade regarding Karstens and/or Hanrahan opens up $10-15 million. They can get a SP like Marcum or Villanueva for cheap or go bigger with Ejax, Haren, or BMac. They will be able to afford $90 million next year with the new cable deal. The money is there to fix both holes.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:45 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
NOTE:

For those who think DK does nothing but bash the Pirates' moves, he praised (rather effusively) both the Wandy Rogriguez trade and A.J. Burnett acquisition --

http://triblive.com/sports/columnists/2 ... z2Cboj4hyy

http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sp ... z2Cboj4hyy


That was before the collapse when Hoka Hey became his mantra. The collapse sealed him in this current state of everything the Bucs do is wrong and they have done nothing well. He is dead wrong on the farm system.


That's an inaccurate generalization. DK rightly reported on a dumb internal development tactic, noted that team officials LIED to him about players getting hurt during military-style drills, and ended up being vindicated by the OWNER of the team who issued an order to NH's crew to stop the military crap.

The collapse SHOULD cause all fans to question the front office, and each acquisition/transaction should be judged on its own merits. Do you think DK would rail against the Pirates if they traded for Giancarlo Stanton? Of course not. Being against the Russell signing is a perfectly legitimate position, and one also championed by Tim Williams (a solid baseball commentator).


He also reported that the system isn't improved and is not good, both wrong. DK made a mountain out of a molehill and has been provided facts that the "SEAL" training was not SEAL training and the agency involved has worked with over 150 teams. He refuses to acknowledge his error. He also never proved anything about management lies regarding the subject. Nutting also did not say to stop the military stuff, he said to focus on baseball, that's not vindication.

Being against the move is one thing, calling it idiocy and comparing it to Matt Morris is a entirely different thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:45 pm 
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Non-tendering Karstens would be a mistake. He's estimated to be due only about $3.8 million for 2013. The Pirates won't be able to replace his solid 120-150 innings for less than that, and one year at that amount is very good value.

Trading Hanrahan would be a good move, as would signing a good starting pitcher like Edwin Jackson.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:49 pm 
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People using this signing as a punctual equivalence to question/bash the Tony Sanchez drafting is kind of bizarre to me. Choosing to bash the T. Sanchez on it's own is fine, but sometimes holes have to be filled - what did you expect the Pirates to do with the catcher position this season? Unless you wanted to bring Barajas back at a discounted rate (i.e. nobody), a catcher was needed. Sanchez and his stock as a prospect have obviously fallen badly, but we didn't need the Pirates signing a catcher to tell us that. Sanchez is obviously not ready, but we've known that would be the case since two years ago when he tanked at Altoona. Yes, the point is valid that this signing is proof that ideally the ETA on Sanchez would not be where it is now, but again, we knew all this already. He needs probably a whole year at AAA, and I don't see Martin's two-year contract as blocking Sanchez if he were to break out before then. Regardless of your views on the NH regime, they have demonstrated that we won't hesitate to trade/dump in the occasion that Sanchez is deemed the better option than Martin if that hypothetical time comes.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:54 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
There you go using baseball reference and its inadequate data, Fangraphs please. Russell's WAR has been 2.2 (in only 97 games), 3.0, 2.2 versus Barajas's -0.2 last year, a 2.5 WAR increase. If you want to use BR WAR then Barajas was -1.0 last year, whic is still a 2.5 WAR increase. NH got 2.5 wins for $8.5 million a year versus Rod's $4 million.


You're assuming that Russell's performance, which has been in decline, won't decline further. On what are you basing that assumption?

Also, the fangraphs article to which you cited includes a long discussion of "pitch framing" and notes that Russell *might* be a good deal for the Pirates if the nascent data relating to pitch framing (and its potential transferability from team to team) is accurate. It seems an unwise move for the Pirates to spend $8.5 million per year on a power-hitting catcher whose offensive and defensive skills have been in fairly steady decline.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
There is no rationale argument that NH didn't add talent to the organization at a fair price with this move. People complain when we don't spend, they complain when we do. This isn't a mid-30's has been move.


My argument (and DK's) is not that the Pirates don't spend any money, but that they don't spend money WISELY. Time will tell with this move, but $17 million over two years for a guy in decline and whose primary value may be defense does not strike me as a great signing; rather, it strikes me as a desperate one.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
I agree that the relative miss on Tony Sanchez caused this need, but plenty of team's missed in the 2009 draft. Its a failure, but not a failure in a vacuum. Failure is the norm in the MLB draft, even at #4 overall in a bad draft class. I still think Sanchez is a MLB catcher, if he hits you can always trade Martin on this affordable deal.


C'mon. AT THE TIME people questioned the selection of Sanchez. This isn't all hindsight. If you don't think the NH/Greg Smith regime has struggled in the draft, then you're not paying attention. Look at the Pirates' best prospects -- outside of Cole and Taillon, you're looking at Rene Gayo guys (Starling Marte, Alen Hanson, Gregory Polanco, Luis Heredia). There should be a LOT more there from the 2008, 2009, 2010 drafts ready to help the Pirates win...


Umm, I said it was a failure of the system. My point is that all teams miss, having a coronary over the Pirates issues without doing any research into what other teams do is assanine. The Pirate fanbase is into this whole "we don't do everything perfect so fire everyone mentality". The best front offices make mistakes, constantly. Its important to consider opinion from outside the fanbase as a more accurate view of how the Pirates moves stack up in MLB context. Not fantasy land context where every pick pans out and every move works. You're statement that there "should be a lot more here" is completely without merit, show me how other teams are consistently getting more from their drafts in 2008-2010. The Pirates used a high risk high reward strategy, which most of us supported fully. Its disingenuous to cry foul now when the lottery tickets didn't hit.

The 2009 draft, who did you want? I wanted Matt Purke, miss. Many wanted Aaron Crow, miss, Many wanted Grant Green, miss. You can't look back and pick the two HS arms that look good and pretend that we somehow would have nailed Wheeler and Miller.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:56 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
He also reported that the system isn't improved and is not good, both wrong.


Wrong. I've read numerous DK articles noting that the farm system is better than it was in 2007 when NH took over, but nearly good enough given the years of high draft picks and player development. And that's 100% correct.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
DK made a mountain out of a molehill and has been provided facts that the "SEAL" training was not SEAL training and the agency involved has worked with over 150 teams. He refuses to acknowledge his error.


No error at all. The agency worked with ZERO baseball teams. And it's not a "mountain out of a molehill" when baseball front offices, scouts, player agents and numerous other insider baseball people refer to the Pirates' player development system as a "laughingstock." Perception matters, Barrys Dopers, and it does not help the Pittsburgh Baseball Club when prospects are getting injured leaping into ice pools at 6:00 a.m.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
He also never proved anything about management lies regarding the subject.


Unless you believe both Gregory Polanco (through his interpreter) and Jameson Taillon lied, then you're wrong. The PBC told DK that no player was every hurt during these stupid military-style drills or during the pathetic "Hell Week" Kyle Stark initiated. Polanco and Taillon said otherwise. Why would they lie?

Barrys Dopers wrote:
Nutting also did not say to stop the military stuff, he said to focus on baseball, that's not vindication.


Can you read? Here's the statement:

“I believe that our primary responsibility is to develop baseball players to play baseball and win championships at PNC Park. We are not and we should not be a military organization. We should not run a boot-camp environment.

I bolded and italicized the relevant portion, in case you missed it again.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
Being against the move is one thing, calling it idiocy and comparing it to Matt Morris is a entirely different thing.


He made clear that he wasn't comparing Russell to Morris; rather, he was comparing the motives behind those moves. DK believes that NH is on a short leash and that this move reeks of desperation. It's an opinion. I don't necessarily agree with it. But I do have a big problem with the move based on the fact that the Pirates selected a catcher with the #4 overall pick in the 2009 draft. If Greg Smith and Neal Huntington did a better job in the draft from 2008 to 2010, then the Pirates wouldn't need to take a $17 million gamble on a catcher in decline. That's my overarching point.


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 Post subject: Re: Pirates sign Russell Martin
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:00 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
Umm, I said it was a failure of the system. My point is that all teams miss, having a coronary over the Pirates issues without doing any research into what other teams do is assanine. The Pirate fanbase is into this whole "we don't do everything perfect so fire everyone mentality". The best front offices make mistakes, constantly. Its important to consider opinion from outside the fanbase as a more accurate view of how the Pirates moves stack up in MLB context. Not fantasy land context where every pick pans out and every move works. You're statement that there "should be a lot more here" is completely without merit, show me how other teams are consistently getting more from their drafts in 2008-2010. The Pirates used a high risk high reward strategy, which most of us supported fully. Its disingenuous to cry foul now when the lottery tickets didn't hit.


Look WHERE the Pirates were drafting. Are you telling me that Greg Smith and Neal Huntington did a great job from 2008 to 2010? I can show you a lot of teams doing better with talent acquired from those drafts, most of whom didn't draft from the Pirates' privileged position.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
The 2009 draft, who did you want? I wanted Matt Purke, miss. Many wanted Aaron Crow, miss, Many wanted Grant Green, miss. You can't look back and pick the two HS arms that look good and pretend that we somehow would have nailed Wheeler and Miller.


This is a strawman argument. I don't get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to evaluate baseball talent. NH and the guys in his team do. And with the Pirates' draft position, they should have done a lot better. Their job is to draft good baseball players, develop them, and bring them to the Pirates so that the team can win. They are failing at that.


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