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 Post subject: Cubs sign Scott Baker
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:45 pm 
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one year $5.5 million plus $1.5 in incentives. Nice deal for the recovering 2-3 WAR righty.

Its very strange to see the Cubs make good decisions on a regular basis.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs sign Scott Baker
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:54 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
one year $5.5 million plus $1.5 in incentives. Nice deal for the recovering 2-3 WAR righty.

Its very strange to see the Cubs make good decisions on a regular basis.


With their capital and Theo overseeing things I can't see them not being a consistent contender within the next five years.


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 Post subject: Re: Cubs sign Scott Baker
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:49 pm 
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I am not buying into the Theo hype. Yes, they did win two World Series while he was in Boston, but did he build those teams? It seems he made some moves to help them, but this is more of a challenge and if he succeeds in winning the Cubs a series, I will buy into it. I am not saying I don't think he is a good GM. I am just saying it's like the Billy Beane hype. Not miracle workers.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs sign Scott Baker
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:00 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
I am not buying into the Theo hype. Yes, they did win two World Series while he was in Boston, but did he build those teams? It seems he made some moves to help them, but this is more of a challenge and if he succeeds in winning the Cubs a series, I will buy into it. I am not saying I don't think he is a good GM. I am just saying it's like the Billy Beane hype. Not miracle workers.


Do you think Billy Beane is a good GM? He may have a lot of hype, but I think he's pretty damn good.


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 Post subject: Re: Cubs sign Scott Baker
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:27 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
I am not buying into the Theo hype. Yes, they did win two World Series while he was in Boston, but did he build those teams? It seems he made some moves to help them, but this is more of a challenge and if he succeeds in winning the Cubs a series, I will buy into it. I am not saying I don't think he is a good GM. I am just saying it's like the Billy Beane hype. Not miracle workers.


Do you think Billy Beane is a good GM? He may have a lot of hype, but I think he's pretty damn good.


How many World Series have the A's won under Beane? How many World Series have they been to? Is he good? Sure. Is he the best? Nope. Not in the conversation.

Here is a good article that reflects my view.

http://www.sfexaminer.com/sports/teams/as/2011/09/general-manager-billy-beane-thrifty-no-genius

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs sign Scott Baker
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:11 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
I am not buying into the Theo hype. Yes, they did win two World Series while he was in Boston, but did he build those teams? It seems he made some moves to help them, but this is more of a challenge and if he succeeds in winning the Cubs a series, I will buy into it. I am not saying I don't think he is a good GM. I am just saying it's like the Billy Beane hype. Not miracle workers.


Do you think Billy Beane is a good GM? He may have a lot of hype, but I think he's pretty damn good.


How many World Series have the A's won under Beane? How many World Series have they been to? Is he good? Sure. Is he the best? Nope. Not in the conversation.

Here is a good article that reflects my view.

http://www.sfexaminer.com/sports/teams/as/2011/09/general-manager-billy-beane-thrifty-no-genius


He's much better than any recent Pirates' GM. And I never said he was a "genius"; I said he was a "good GM." Do you agree or disagree?


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 Post subject: Re: Cubs sign Scott Baker
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:49 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
He's much better than any recent Pirates' GM. And I never said he was a "genius"; I said he was a "good GM." Do you agree or disagree?


I said he was good. But I also said he was overhyped. There have been many better ones over recent years. And I wasn't comparing him to any Pirate GM

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs sign Scott Baker
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:58 am 
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bucco boy wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
He's much better than any recent Pirates' GM. And I never said he was a "genius"; I said he was a "good GM." Do you agree or disagree?


I said he was good. But I also said he was overhyped. There have been many better ones over recent years. And I wasn't comparing him to any Pirate GM


You asked how many World Series he won. Then you begrudgingly acknowledged that he's "good."

And I WAS comparing him to the Pirates' recent GMs. This is a Pirates board. I was mocked on this board two years ago when I suggested that Walt Jocketty might be a better GM than Neal Huntington. What do people think about that now?


Last edited by J_C_Steel on Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs sign Scott Baker
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:25 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
He's much better than any recent Pirates' GM. And I never said he was a "genius"; I said he was a "good GM." Do you agree or disagree?


I said he was good. But I also said he was overhyped. There have been many better ones over recent years. And I wasn't comparing him to any Pirate GM


You didn't say he was good. You asked how many World Series he won. Read what you wrote.

And I WAS comparing him to the Pirates' recent GMs. This is a Pirates board. I was mocked on this board two years ago when I suggested that Walt Jocketty might be a better GM than Neal Huntington. What do people think about that now?

For some reason many Pirate fans seem to give NH a pass because he is viewed as a better GM than Bonifay and Littlefield...but so are Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, and the piece of lint in my pocket. There are many GM's out there...MANY...that are better than NH. And my biggest complaint, at least right now, is who he surrounds himself with.


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 Post subject: Re: Cubs sign Scott Baker
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:42 pm 
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How many World Series would Oakland have won under the best GM of all-time? Say the ghost of Branch Rickey becomes their GM and has the power of 20/20 foresight. It's still Oakland and they are still limited by their budget.

Brian Cashman, best GM ever!

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs sign Scott Baker
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:33 pm 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
How many World Series would Oakland have won under the best GM of all-time? Say the ghost of Branch Rickey becomes their GM and has the power of 20/20 foresight. It's still Oakland and they are still limited by their budget.

Brian Cashman, best GM ever!


Yeah, acting like Billy Beane isn't a great GM is pretty silly. The guy revolutionized small market baseball and found a way to make Oakland competitive over the long haul in an unfair MLB system. Winning the largely arbitrary MLB postseason tournament isn't exactly a valid measuring stick.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs sign Scott Baker
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:58 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
How many World Series would Oakland have won under the best GM of all-time? Say the ghost of Branch Rickey becomes their GM and has the power of 20/20 foresight. It's still Oakland and they are still limited by their budget.

Brian Cashman, best GM ever!


Yeah, acting like Billy Beane isn't a great GM is pretty silly. The guy revolutionized small market baseball and found a way to make Oakland competitive over the long haul in an unfair MLB system. Winning the largely arbitrary MLB postseason tournament isn't exactly a valid measuring stick.



I'd even go so far as to give that argument to someone in a sport like football, where you can say "OH HE DON'T HAVE NO RINGS YO". But not in a game like baseball, which has an inherently non-level playing field. It can't be your one and only barometer of success.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs sign Scott Baker
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:43 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
He's much better than any recent Pirates' GM. And I never said he was a "genius"; I said he was a "good GM." Do you agree or disagree?


I said he was good. But I also said he was overhyped. There have been many better ones over recent years. And I wasn't comparing him to any Pirate GM


You asked how many World Series he won. Then you begrudgingly acknowledged that he's "good."

And I WAS comparing him to the Pirates' recent GMs. This is a Pirates board. I was mocked on this board two years ago when I suggested that Walt Jocketty might be a better GM than Neal Huntington. What do people think about that now?


Do you have problems reading sometimes? The first time you asked if he was good, I said yes. Then you asked it again. And I said yes again. Now you are complaining that I said he was good.

And all of the sudden because this is a Pirate board, I have to compare him to a Pirate GM? What the heck kind of argument is that?

And you of all people, who has raised his might sword and said it's a championship or nothing, should loathe Billy Beane because he has won zero pennants and zero World Series.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs sign Scott Baker
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:47 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Do you have problems reading sometimes? The first time you asked if he was good, I said yes. Then you asked it again. And I said yes again. Now you are complaining that I said he was good.


I actually edited my response to reflect that you did begrudgingly acknowledge that Billy Beane is a good GM. But you first criticized him, which I found rather amusing.

bucco boy wrote:
And all of the sudden because this is a Pirate board, I have to compare him to a Pirate GM? What the heck kind of argument is that?


It's not an argument; it's a statement of fact. This is a Pittsburgh Pirates message board. And in bringing up Beane it's worth noting that, whatever faults he has, he is far better than any GM the Pirates have had in a very long time.

bucco boy wrote:
And you of all people, who has raised his might sword and said it's a championship or nothing, should loathe Billy Beane because he has won zero pennants and zero World Series.


Now you're grossly misquoting me and mischaracterizing my position. It's PLAYOFFS or nothing, my friend. Once a team gets into the postseason, luck becomes a huge part of the equation. The key is getting to the playoffs as often (and as consistently) as possible.

The Pirates have failed in that regard, and failed miserably. Guys like Billy Beane and Walt Jocketty are getting it done far better in comparable markets. Yet I got SLAMMED on this board when I suggested that Jocketty is a better GM than Neal Huntington. Funny how that turned out, huh?


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 Post subject: Re: Cubs sign Scott Baker
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:24 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
Do you have problems reading sometimes? The first time you asked if he was good, I said yes. Then you asked it again. And I said yes again. Now you are complaining that I said he was good.


I actually edited my response to reflect that you did begrudgingly acknowledge that Billy Beane is a good GM. But you first criticized him, which I found rather amusing.

So by calling him overhyped, that's criticizing him. First, the conversation started about Epstein, not Beane. I only compared Epstein to Beane because they are overhyped, not that they aren't good.

bucco boy wrote:
And all of the sudden because this is a Pirate board, I have to compare him to a Pirate GM? What the heck kind of argument is that?


It's not an argument; it's a statement of fact. This is a Pittsburgh Pirates message board. And in bringing up Beane it's worth noting that, whatever faults he has, he is far better than any GM the Pirates have had in a very long time.

Nonsense. People talk about things on this board all the time that are baseball related and aren't Pirate related. And never did I compare any GM to a Pirate GM. You brought that up to make a point. Not disagreeing with it. Just never mentioned it.

bucco boy wrote:
And you of all people, who has raised his might sword and said it's a championship or nothing, should loathe Billy Beane because he has won zero pennants and zero World Series.


Now you're grossly misquoting me and mischaracterizing my position. It's PLAYOFFS or nothing, my friend. Once a team gets into the postseason, luck becomes a huge part of the equation. The key is getting to the playoffs as often (and as consistently) as possible.

The Pirates have failed in that regard, and failed miserably. Guys like Billy Beane and Walt Jocketty are getting it done far better in comparable markets. Yet I got SLAMMED on this board when I suggested that Jocketty is a better GM than Neal Huntington. Funny how that turned out, huh?


Fair enough on the playoffs. My bad. But I reject your theory that luck becomes a part of the equation in the playoffs. Matchups? Yes. Injuries. Yes? Luck? No such thing.

Question: Should have Beane been fired from 2007-2011 when he didn't have a winning record in any of those years? Once again, go back and read the story I posted. It says a lot about his legacy.

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 Post subject: Re: Cubs sign Scott Baker
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:39 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Question: Should have Beane been fired from 2007-2011 when he didn't have a winning record in any of those years? Once again, go back and read the story I posted. It says a lot about his legacy.

It's kinda tough to fire Beane as GM when he has an equity stake in the team.

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