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 Post subject: Re: Army Training
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:31 pm 
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Willton wrote:
buccosfan77 wrote:
The training worked.for.Indy. believe they finished with the best record.

Minor league wins are not the goal. Developing major league players is the goal.


Okay so the tough training worked for 85% of the season. It needs to be tougher.


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 Post subject: Re: Army Training
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:07 pm 
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If the Pirates shipped the young players to Siberia to train with the Special Forces for several years before returning to the baseball diamond, then I might get some righteous indignation worked up.

Its three days. Three days. If any single player can't hit, throw, catch or run the bases because he had to spend three days around some Navy Seals then I submit that the player isn't much of a prospect.

I would venture to guess that a good porportion of the U.S. population understands that the Navy Seals undergo some incredibly vigorous training and that the training is designed to push the soldier to his/her limits and to impose the greatest physical demands possible from that soldier. I frankly do not know and do not particularly care if a 3 day session with the Navy Seals is an effective method of demonstrating the commitment undergone by the Seals and whether it has any viable carry-over into how the game is played on the field. I'm guessing that arguments can be made on both sides of the equation.

Again . . . 3 days. Even if it was a complete waste of time (and I'm not saying it was or it wasn't), it doesn't fall on my radar screen as something that needs to be held out as demonstrating incompetance.

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: Army Training
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:55 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:

Again . . . 3 days. Even if it was a complete waste of time (and I'm not saying it was or it wasn't), it doesn't fall on my radar screen as something that needs to be held out as demonstrating incompetance.

I don't care if it was 3 hours...it is a silly exercise that should be saved for said Navy Seals. In and of itself maybe it doesn't demonstrate incompetence but add it to the list of other things we've seen from Kyle Stark and it provides the cherry on top of his incompetent practices.


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 Post subject: Re: Army Training
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:12 pm 
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What's next? The Navy Seals are going to have 3 hours of intense batting practice?

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 Post subject: Re: Army Training
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:35 pm 
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Look, I'm a current resident of suburbia Pittsburgh but my childhood belongs to Lawrence, Kansas. I'm a devoted fan of my beloved Kansas jayhawk basketball. Each preseason under bill self the team goes through a week of conditioning hell called boot camp. Hmmm. For that week their mental toughness is tested, much more then their physical durability. They don't pick up a basketball the entire week. Can't imagine its that much different. When I tuning seals I think durability above all their other qualities.


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 Post subject: Re: Army Training
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:00 pm 
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buccosfan77 wrote:
Look, I'm a current resident of suburbia Pittsburgh but my childhood belongs to Lawrence, Kansas. I'm a devoted fan of my beloved Kansas jayhawk basketball. Each preseason under bill self the team goes through a week of conditioning hell called boot camp. Hmmm. For that week their mental toughness is tested, much more then their physical durability. They don't pick up a basketball the entire week. Can't imagine its that much different. When I tuning seals I think durability above all their other qualities.

That's college basketball; this is professional baseball. One involves long periods of high effort followed by multiple days of rest; the other involves short periods of high effort followed by approximately 15-20 hours of rest at most. One involves playing 4 months during the coldest time of the year; the other involves playing 6 months during the hottest time of the year. One sport focuses on athleticism; the other focuses on developed, repeatable skills. The circumstances surrounding each sport are so starkly different that it is improper to think that the conditioning desirable for basketball would be similarly desirable for baseball.

Mental toughness is not a problem that the Pirates have. Their problems lie with developing baseball skills. The Pirates should be focusing more on the latter over the former. And in any event, the Pirates' durability will not be tested in three days of military training; it will be tested during the six months of baseball in which they play 6-7 games a week.

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 Post subject: Re: Army Training
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:06 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
I frankly do not know and do not particularly care if a 3 day session with the Navy Seals is an effective method of demonstrating the commitment undergone by the Seals and whether it has any viable carry-over into how the game is played on the field. I'm guessing that arguments can be made on both sides of the equation.


'Training' with SEALS for 3 days is like playing pickup hoops with MJ for 3 hours. It's a great story, you might even learn an atom's worth about 'what it takes' or whatever, but 'viable carry-over' it wouldn't be.

It might be a 'fun motivational' or 'break from the game', but I doubt it would offer any type of long-term or effective results.

I've seen people fail to get 'take away' from 9 weeks of intensive military training. Unless the trainees fall under UCMJ, anything less than 2 weeks is an exhibition.

It's not that 'training with military' is a sign of 'leadership incomeptence', but more than it really shouldn't be viewed as anything other than a publicity stunt.

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 Post subject: Re: Army Training
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:48 am 
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I don't seem to recall the Pirates promoting the exercise. It seems to me that the media brought it to light.

I don't get the righteous indignation. It makes zero sense to me. Again . . . I don't buy any suggestion that spending 3 days with Navy Seals somehow stunts a particular player's baseball development. If that was indeed the case, wouldn't every team have to re-examine what it requires a player to do during the offseason?

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the players needed to spend 4 hours per day (for a total of 12 hours) running the bases. Maybe that would make the difference that some seem to suggest was lost when they spent 3 days with the Seals.

I'm not sold that there is any material benefit to such training but I'm also not sold that corporate "team building" retreats offer material benefits as well but there is a sizeable population that believes there is an important benefit to such exercises. My reaction . . . "oh well" . . . nothing more, nothing less.

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Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: Army Training
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:16 am 
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No. 9 wrote:
I don't seem to recall the Pirates promoting the exercise. It seems to me that the media brought it to light.


I meant in general. In general, a sports team doing 'military training' screams 'publicity stunt' (like that Coach K article). Can't comment on the specifics of the Pirates thing.

No. 9 wrote:
I don't get the righteous indignation. It makes zero sense to me. Again . . . I don't buy any suggestion that spending 3 days with Navy Seals somehow stunts a particular player's baseball development... I'm not sold that there is any material benefit to such training but I'm also not sold that corporate "team building" retreats offer material benefits as well but there is a sizeable population that believes there is an important benefit to such exercises. My reaction . . . "oh well" . . . nothing more, nothing less.


I agree. Sorry if that wasn't clearer in my post(s).

Anyone who takes a team, any team, doing 'military training' seriously needs to lighten up. Your corporate 'team building retreat' analogy is very apt.

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 Post subject: Re: Army Training
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:47 am 
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People are really getting desperate for people to blame....


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 Post subject: Re: Army Training
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:30 am 
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It's obvious to me the Pirates must play much better baseball...pitching...hitting...and defense in August and September.

A balanced offensive attack...not all streaky home run hitters (except for Cutch) and a deeper, stronger starting pitching rotation who can seal the deal in August and September.

Everything else is irrelevant.

Whether the Pirates have the talent to get it done is debatable, although
I think there are significant upgrades at a some key positions that still need to happen to get this Pirate team into the playoffs.

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 Post subject: Re: Army Training
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:40 am 
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No. 9 wrote:
My reaction . . . "oh well" . . . nothing more, nothing less.


This.

It was three days with a bunch of minor leaguers. These guys are big boys, they can handle it.


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 Post subject: Re: Army Training
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:48 pm 
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Willton wrote:
buccosfan77 wrote:
Look, I'm a current resident of suburbia Pittsburgh but my childhood belongs to Lawrence, Kansas. I'm a devoted fan of my beloved Kansas jayhawk basketball. Each preseason under bill self the team goes through a week of conditioning hell called boot camp. Hmmm. For that week their mental toughness is tested, much more then their physical durability. They don't pick up a basketball the entire week. Can't imagine its that much different. When I tuning seals I think durability above all their other qualities.


Mental toughness is not a problem that the Pirates have.


I very much disagree with that point. Every year when the collapse begins, they lack the mental toughness to pull themselves out of it.

It's not just regression to the mean or guys getting tired. It's crumbling under the mental pressure of being in contention.


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