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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:18 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
I would agree that SP is #1, I'll keeping banging the Jon Lester drum (if not Lester then Dan Haren on a 1 year rebuild value deal).


Bang it loud. Either would be perfect 'refurbish' jobs for this team.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
There isn't a C out there that will help much IMO.


True, but it's still the most pressing need (as Barmes looks locked in at SS and one 'defense first' player is acceptable; especially at such a hard position to fill).

Barrys Dopers wrote:
I don't see 1B as an issue unless you trade Jones.


And also assuming that Gaby is retained. Plus, the dreaded 'platoon' debate. In theory/general, much like C, 1B is a de facto 'need', albeit an unlikely one to be filled.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
RP is probably #2 on the need list since only Hanny, Hughes, Watson, and Resop will return and they should trade Hanny. That said, filling the bullpen on the cheap is NH's best skill.


*nodding*

What's the deal with Juan Cruz? He was solid then I forget if he was cut or just injured (or both).

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:19 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
I would agree that SP is #1, I'll keeping banging the Jon Lester drum (if not Lester then Dan Haren on a 1 year rebuild value deal).


Bang it loud. Either would be perfect 'refurbish' jobs for this team.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
There isn't a C out there that will help much IMO.


True, but it's still the most pressing need (as Barmes looks locked in at SS and one 'defense first' player is acceptable; especially at such a hard position to fill).

Barrys Dopers wrote:
I don't see 1B as an issue unless you trade Jones.


And also assuming that Gaby is retained. Plus, the dreaded 'platoon' debate. In theory/general, much like C, 1B is a de facto 'need', albeit an unlikely one to be filled.

Barrys Dopers wrote:
RP is probably #2 on the need list since only Hanny, Hughes, Watson, and Resop will return and they should trade Hanny. That said, filling the bullpen on the cheap is NH's best skill.


*nodding*

What's the deal with Juan Cruz? He was solid then I forget if he was cut or just injured (or both).


Juan Cruz stunk after he got back from his time off to go take care of 'family issues' or 'private matters' or whatever it was.


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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:40 pm 
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Maybe we can trade for a catcher.

I'm leery of going into the season with McKenry and Sanchez as your top two guys. Sanchez needs to log more AAA time and improve his offense there for me to be comfortable with him in the bigs.


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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:18 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
Maybe we can trade for a catcher.

I'm leery of going into the season with McKenry and Sanchez as your top two guys. Sanchez needs to log more AAA time and improve his offense there for me to be comfortable with him in the bigs.


Bingo. I think a catching upgrade can be had by trade. The Nats have an extra guy if Ramos comes back, and the Jays have d'Arnaud coming up making Arencibia available. That's just a couple that I can think of.


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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:19 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
Maybe we can trade for a catcher.

I'm leery of going into the season with McKenry and Sanchez as your top two guys. Sanchez needs to log more AAA time and improve his offense there for me to be comfortable with him in the bigs.


Bingo. I think a catching upgrade can be had by trade. The Nats have an extra guy if Ramos comes back, and the Jays have d'Arnaud coming up making Arencibia available. That's just a couple that I can think of.



You aren't talking about Suzuki, are you? I hope not.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:01 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
doug frobel wrote:
No, I'm not telling you all to put on your jock strap, but I would like to hear what kind of package you think it would take to pry Justin Upton from the D-Backs. It is likely he will be dealt, and I think he is poised for a big year (just a hunch). He's just the kind of bat we need to complete this lineup.

I'd offer:

Taillon
Tabata
Jones

No Marte for now.

I'd offer a couple of dubious prospects from State College. Justin Upton is an illusion created by playing in a ballpark that loves hitters. Granted, he's only 24 and he might show a ton of improvement over the next three or four years, but if the Pirates traded Taillon or Tabata for Upton I'd lead the march on Federal Street to depose the current management team.


Are you kidding? You wouldn't accept a Tabata for Upton deal?!?! Are you crazy?

Who's kidding who? You could never get Upton for Tabata straight up after the season Tabata had last year. That means a package. That probably means overpaying, especially if it was the crazy package above.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:06 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
doug frobel wrote:
No, I'm not telling you all to put on your jock strap, but I would like to hear what kind of package you think it would take to pry Justin Upton from the D-Backs. It is likely he will be dealt, and I think he is poised for a big year (just a hunch). He's just the kind of bat we need to complete this lineup.

I'd offer:

Taillon
Tabata
Jones

No Marte for now.

I'd offer a couple of dubious prospects from State College. Justin Upton is an illusion created by playing in a ballpark that loves hitters. Granted, he's only 24 and he might show a ton of improvement over the next three or four years, but if the Pirates traded Taillon or Tabata for Upton I'd lead the march on Federal Street to depose the current management team.

For the record, the current management team should be deposed...
If the Dbacks would accept Tabata and some throw ins for Upton, I'd drive Tabata to Arizona myself. Wouldn't trade Taillon for him, but Tabata? C'mon...that guy is toast.

He's younger than Upton.

But it's irrelevant. You could never get Upton for Tabata and throw ins, unless the throw ins were a lot better than Tabata. The thing is, outside of hitter friendly Arizona, Upton IS Tabata, more or less, with a lifetime road OPS of .731. PNC would eat him alive, and he's due about $38M over the next three years. He'd be a terrible addition.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:27 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
PirateParrot wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
I'd offer a couple of dubious prospects from State College. Justin Upton is an illusion created by playing in a ballpark that loves hitters. Granted, he's only 24 and he might show a ton of improvement over the next three or four years, but if the Pirates traded Taillon or Tabata for Upton I'd lead the march on Federal Street to depose the current management team.

For the record, the current management team should be deposed...
If the Dbacks would accept Tabata and some throw ins for Upton, I'd drive Tabata to Arizona myself. Wouldn't trade Taillon for him, but Tabata? C'mon...that guy is toast.

He's younger than Upton.

But it's irrelevant. You could never get Upton for Tabata and throw ins, unless the throw ins were a lot better than Tabata. The thing is, outside of hitter friendly Arizona, Upton IS Tabata, more or less, with a lifetime road OPS of .731. PNC would eat him alive, and he's due about $38M over the next three years. He'd be a terrible addition.

I'm fine with starting the season with Marte, McCutchen, and Snider(I really like him for some reason) in the outfield. But if you aren't going to add a bat to this lineup then a few things better happen...
1. Pedro becomes consistent and McCutchen stays strong for an entire season. Not .380 strong, but he has to avoid the major dip in the second half of a season.
2. Secondary players such as Walker and Jones need to not drop off significantly.
3. Marte blossoms into a really exciting player(I think he will, just not sure if it will be next year).
4. The pitching better be upgraded.

Even with all of that, I dread seeing a Sanchez/McKenry tandem catching and Barmes at SS....
To your original point, I'm not desperate to add Upton at all...but if they were dumb enough to make a trade with Tabata as the centerpiece then yes.


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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:28 pm 
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Mister Pittsburgh wrote:
Mister Pittsburgh's Hierarchy of Needs:
Owner
President
GM
Manager
SP(s)
C
SS

I second that!


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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:26 pm 
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Wow I dont see how members are comparing Upton to Tabata. Upton is vastly superior in all aspects of play! Also Upton's potential is amazing, and the guy has awesome power. He has already proven himself in the big leagues, and looks to get even better. Of course members on here would say that they wouldn't trade Tabata for Upton...whatta joke!

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:19 am 
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Yeah, I don't know how people got the idea that I was suggesting one for one. Throw whatever numbers out there that you want, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. His a serious, established talent, and it will take a package to get him, probably including a top pitching prospect.


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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:50 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
I'm fine with starting the season with Marte, McCutchen, and Snider(I really like him for some reason) in the outfield. But if you aren't going to add a bat to this lineup then a few things better happen...
1. Pedro becomes consistent and McCutchen stays strong for an entire season. Not .380 strong, but he has to avoid the major dip in the second half of a season.
2. Secondary players such as Walker and Jones need to not drop off significantly.
3. Marte blossoms into a really exciting player(I think he will, just not sure if it will be next year).
4. The pitching better be upgraded.

Even with all of that, I dread seeing a Sanchez/McKenry tandem catching and Barmes at SS....
To your original point, I'm not desperate to add Upton at all...but if they were dumb enough to make a trade with Tabata as the centerpiece then yes.


I'd like to see Snider get some work in at 1st base in the offseason and Spring Training. It will add to him getting more playing time if Tabata comes back the player he was the previous seasons. It also opens up moving Jones if there is someone interested.

Tabata and Presley as your 4th and 5th OFers going into 2013 isn't a bad thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:29 pm 
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Upton is a very good player but given his contract I wouldn't give up elite talent for him. And I wouldn't trade Taillon, period. And if we trade Jones that just opens up another hole to be filled.

Tabata is never going to be better than mediocre. He doesn't even make an honest effort out there.

Presley I like as a reserve outfielder. I think he's capable of hitting better than he did this year.


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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:09 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Wow I dont see how members are comparing Upton to Tabata. Upton is vastly superior in all aspects of play! Also Upton's potential is amazing, and the guy has awesome power. He has already proven himself in the big leagues, and looks to get even better. Of course members on here would say that they wouldn't trade Tabata for Upton...whatta joke!

All Upton has proved is that he's an average hitter at best outside of Arizona. He's nothing special at all, and he has a huge contract. Let's put it this way: would you offer Garrett Jones $38M for the next three years? If you like Upton, you should, because Jones is a much better hitter.

Granted, Upton can still improve. That being said, he'd have to improve an awful lot just to justify the remainder of his contract. That would be a poor gamble for the Pirates to take.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:12 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
Yeah, I don't know how people got the idea that I was suggesting one for one. Throw whatever numbers out there that you want, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. His a serious, established talent, and it will take a package to get him, probably including a top pitching prospect.

Then he is way overpriced, because he's a below average hitter with a huge contract.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:18 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
doug frobel wrote:
Yeah, I don't know how people got the idea that I was suggesting one for one. Throw whatever numbers out there that you want, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. His a serious, established talent, and it will take a package to get him, probably including a top pitching prospect.

Then he is way overpriced, because he's a below average hitter with a huge contract.

A below average hitter? Do any of you watch baseball? Justin Upton is only 25 years old, to date he has already had 2 all star games, hit 108 homeruns, has an .832 obp, and once again he is only 25 years old!
Justin Upton is not a below average hitter...

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:43 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
doug frobel wrote:
Yeah, I don't know how people got the idea that I was suggesting one for one. Throw whatever numbers out there that you want, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. His a serious, established talent, and it will take a package to get him, probably including a top pitching prospect.

Then he is way overpriced, because he's a below average hitter with a huge contract.

A below average hitter? Do any of you watch baseball? Justin Upton is only 25 years old, to date he has already had 2 all star games, hit 108 homeruns, has an .832 obp, and once again he is only 25 years old!
Justin Upton is not a below average hitter...

Please bear in mind that Justin Upton has played his entire career in Arizona thus far, meaning that all of his home games to date have been played at Chase Field, which is an extreme hitter's park.

Justin Upton's Career Home/Away Splits
Home: .307/.389/.548 in 1496 plate appearances
Away: .250/.325/.406 in 1534 plate appearances

http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... &t=b#plato

At home, Upton is an All-Star caliber hitter. On the road, Upton hits like a 4th outfielder. Since the Pirates do not play half of their games in Chase Field, logic dictates that Upton's away numbers are more indicative of the results the Pirates would receive if they were to trade for Upton.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:27 pm 
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Okay a player's success at home is not solely because of the ballpark...
Once he gets comfy at a new home ballpark he could replicate those stats. He also plays road games at some very tough hitter's ballparks such as the Padre's stadium.

Upton still has insanely good power and could put up big numbers as a member of ANY major league team...The guy hasn't even hit the best years of his career...

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:29 pm 
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Nicely done.


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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:03 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
doug frobel wrote:
Yeah, I don't know how people got the idea that I was suggesting one for one. Throw whatever numbers out there that you want, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. His a serious, established talent, and it will take a package to get him, probably including a top pitching prospect.

Then he is way overpriced, because he's a below average hitter with a huge contract.

A below average hitter? Do any of you watch baseball? Justin Upton is only 25 years old, to date he has already had 2 all star games, hit 108 homeruns, has an .832 obp, and once again he is only 25 years old!
Justin Upton is not a below average hitter...

A below average hitter. I do watch baseball, and I look at stats. Compare his hitting at home to his hitting on the road, and it's an ugly picture. So far in his career his production is an illusion created by play half of his games in Arizona. At home, he's a beast (.307 / .389 / .548, 67 HRs). On the road he's a mouse (.250 / .325 / .406, 41 HRs). He'd get killed at PNC, which eats right handed power hitters alive. His road OPS is .713; Jose Tabata's career OPS is .710. The only thing that Upton has going for him is his age. What he has going against him is that he's getting paid Andrew McCutchen dollars for Jose Tabata production in half of his games.

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