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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:19 am 
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Yeah, I don't know how people got the idea that I was suggesting one for one. Throw whatever numbers out there that you want, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. His a serious, established talent, and it will take a package to get him, probably including a top pitching prospect.


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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:50 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
I'm fine with starting the season with Marte, McCutchen, and Snider(I really like him for some reason) in the outfield. But if you aren't going to add a bat to this lineup then a few things better happen...
1. Pedro becomes consistent and McCutchen stays strong for an entire season. Not .380 strong, but he has to avoid the major dip in the second half of a season.
2. Secondary players such as Walker and Jones need to not drop off significantly.
3. Marte blossoms into a really exciting player(I think he will, just not sure if it will be next year).
4. The pitching better be upgraded.

Even with all of that, I dread seeing a Sanchez/McKenry tandem catching and Barmes at SS....
To your original point, I'm not desperate to add Upton at all...but if they were dumb enough to make a trade with Tabata as the centerpiece then yes.


I'd like to see Snider get some work in at 1st base in the offseason and Spring Training. It will add to him getting more playing time if Tabata comes back the player he was the previous seasons. It also opens up moving Jones if there is someone interested.

Tabata and Presley as your 4th and 5th OFers going into 2013 isn't a bad thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:29 pm 
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Upton is a very good player but given his contract I wouldn't give up elite talent for him. And I wouldn't trade Taillon, period. And if we trade Jones that just opens up another hole to be filled.

Tabata is never going to be better than mediocre. He doesn't even make an honest effort out there.

Presley I like as a reserve outfielder. I think he's capable of hitting better than he did this year.


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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:09 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Wow I dont see how members are comparing Upton to Tabata. Upton is vastly superior in all aspects of play! Also Upton's potential is amazing, and the guy has awesome power. He has already proven himself in the big leagues, and looks to get even better. Of course members on here would say that they wouldn't trade Tabata for Upton...whatta joke!

All Upton has proved is that he's an average hitter at best outside of Arizona. He's nothing special at all, and he has a huge contract. Let's put it this way: would you offer Garrett Jones $38M for the next three years? If you like Upton, you should, because Jones is a much better hitter.

Granted, Upton can still improve. That being said, he'd have to improve an awful lot just to justify the remainder of his contract. That would be a poor gamble for the Pirates to take.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:12 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
Yeah, I don't know how people got the idea that I was suggesting one for one. Throw whatever numbers out there that you want, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. His a serious, established talent, and it will take a package to get him, probably including a top pitching prospect.

Then he is way overpriced, because he's a below average hitter with a huge contract.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:18 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
doug frobel wrote:
Yeah, I don't know how people got the idea that I was suggesting one for one. Throw whatever numbers out there that you want, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. His a serious, established talent, and it will take a package to get him, probably including a top pitching prospect.

Then he is way overpriced, because he's a below average hitter with a huge contract.

A below average hitter? Do any of you watch baseball? Justin Upton is only 25 years old, to date he has already had 2 all star games, hit 108 homeruns, has an .832 obp, and once again he is only 25 years old!
Justin Upton is not a below average hitter...

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:43 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
doug frobel wrote:
Yeah, I don't know how people got the idea that I was suggesting one for one. Throw whatever numbers out there that you want, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. His a serious, established talent, and it will take a package to get him, probably including a top pitching prospect.

Then he is way overpriced, because he's a below average hitter with a huge contract.

A below average hitter? Do any of you watch baseball? Justin Upton is only 25 years old, to date he has already had 2 all star games, hit 108 homeruns, has an .832 obp, and once again he is only 25 years old!
Justin Upton is not a below average hitter...

Please bear in mind that Justin Upton has played his entire career in Arizona thus far, meaning that all of his home games to date have been played at Chase Field, which is an extreme hitter's park.

Justin Upton's Career Home/Away Splits
Home: .307/.389/.548 in 1496 plate appearances
Away: .250/.325/.406 in 1534 plate appearances

http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... &t=b#plato

At home, Upton is an All-Star caliber hitter. On the road, Upton hits like a 4th outfielder. Since the Pirates do not play half of their games in Chase Field, logic dictates that Upton's away numbers are more indicative of the results the Pirates would receive if they were to trade for Upton.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:27 pm 
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Okay a player's success at home is not solely because of the ballpark...
Once he gets comfy at a new home ballpark he could replicate those stats. He also plays road games at some very tough hitter's ballparks such as the Padre's stadium.

Upton still has insanely good power and could put up big numbers as a member of ANY major league team...The guy hasn't even hit the best years of his career...

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:29 pm 
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Nicely done.


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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:03 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
doug frobel wrote:
Yeah, I don't know how people got the idea that I was suggesting one for one. Throw whatever numbers out there that you want, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. His a serious, established talent, and it will take a package to get him, probably including a top pitching prospect.

Then he is way overpriced, because he's a below average hitter with a huge contract.

A below average hitter? Do any of you watch baseball? Justin Upton is only 25 years old, to date he has already had 2 all star games, hit 108 homeruns, has an .832 obp, and once again he is only 25 years old!
Justin Upton is not a below average hitter...

A below average hitter. I do watch baseball, and I look at stats. Compare his hitting at home to his hitting on the road, and it's an ugly picture. So far in his career his production is an illusion created by play half of his games in Arizona. At home, he's a beast (.307 / .389 / .548, 67 HRs). On the road he's a mouse (.250 / .325 / .406, 41 HRs). He'd get killed at PNC, which eats right handed power hitters alive. His road OPS is .713; Jose Tabata's career OPS is .710. The only thing that Upton has going for him is his age. What he has going against him is that he's getting paid Andrew McCutchen dollars for Jose Tabata production in half of his games.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:07 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Okay a player's success at home is not solely because of the ballpark...
Once he gets comfy at a new home ballpark he could replicate those stats. He also plays road games at some very tough hitter's ballparks such as the Padre's stadium.

Really? When can we expect Jason Bay to become comfortable in New York?

It's not a matter of comfort. Some ballparks are great for hitters and bad for pitchers, like Arizona. Some are good for hitters and bad for pitchers, like PNC. EVERYBODY plays road games at the SAME ballparks, with the exception of their home field.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:45 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Okay a player's success at home is not solely because of the ballpark...
Once he gets comfy at a new home ballpark he could replicate those stats. He also plays road games at some very tough hitter's ballparks such as the Padre's stadium.

Upton still has insanely good power and could put up big numbers as a member of ANY major league team...The guy hasn't even hit the best years of his career...

Upton also plays many of his road games at extreme hitters parks, such as Coors Field in Colorado. The number of games he plays on the road in good and bad hitting environments evens out. They do not even out at home. And at home is the only place where we've seen this "insanely good power" from Upton. One has to wonder if Upton is really as good as he looks in AZ, or if he's just the next iteration of Kevin Mench.

It is true that Upton's best years may be ahead of him. The same could be said of Tabata. But Tabata is not getting paid over $10M per season. The risk is much easier to swallow with Tabata.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:47 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Okay a player's success at home is not solely because of the ballpark...
Once he gets comfy at a new home ballpark he could replicate those stats. He also plays road games at some very tough hitter's ballparks such as the Padre's stadium.

Upton still has insanely good power and could put up big numbers as a member of ANY major league team...The guy hasn't even hit the best years of his career...

Upton also plays many of his road games at extreme hitters parks, such as Coors Field in Colorado. The number of games he plays on the road in good and bad hitting environments evens out. They do not even out at home. And at home is the only place where we've seen this "insanely good power" from Upton. One has to wonder if Upton is really as good as he looks in AZ, or if he's just the next iteration of Kevin Mench.

It is true that Upton's best years may be ahead of him. The same could be said of Tabata. But Tabata is not getting paid over $10M per season. The risk is much easier to swallow with Tabata.

Please don't compare Justin Upton to Jose Tabata. That is a joke, and I don't care what ballpark either plays in. Tabata has hit a whopping 11 career HR's and this year became slow to boot. He is a couple years younger(allegedly) and that is the only thing he has going for him when compared to Upton. Oh yea...and of course the all mighty dollar. Always seems to come up when discussing the Pirates. Tabata's contract makes him "easier to swallow".

Again, I'm not craving the Pirates trade the farm for Justin Upton. However, if they could some how get the Dbacks to accept a more Pirate friendly deal then by all means Upton is the kind of "risk" they need to be taking.


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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:27 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Willton wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Okay a player's success at home is not solely because of the ballpark...
Once he gets comfy at a new home ballpark he could replicate those stats. He also plays road games at some very tough hitter's ballparks such as the Padre's stadium.

Upton still has insanely good power and could put up big numbers as a member of ANY major league team...The guy hasn't even hit the best years of his career...

Upton also plays many of his road games at extreme hitters parks, such as Coors Field in Colorado. The number of games he plays on the road in good and bad hitting environments evens out. They do not even out at home. And at home is the only place where we've seen this "insanely good power" from Upton. One has to wonder if Upton is really as good as he looks in AZ, or if he's just the next iteration of Kevin Mench.

It is true that Upton's best years may be ahead of him. The same could be said of Tabata. But Tabata is not getting paid over $10M per season. The risk is much easier to swallow with Tabata.

Please don't compare Justin Upton to Jose Tabata. That is a joke, and I don't care what ballpark either plays in. Tabata has hit a whopping 11 career HR's and this year became slow to boot. He is a couple years younger(allegedly) and that is the only thing he has going for him when compared to Upton. Oh yea...and of course the all mighty dollar. Always seems to come up when discussing the Pirates. Tabata's contract makes him "easier to swallow".

Again, I'm not craving the Pirates trade the farm for Justin Upton. However, if they could some how get the Dbacks to accept a more Pirate friendly deal then by all means Upton is the kind of "risk" they need to be taking.

Upton isn't a risk. Upton is an almost guaranteed loss.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:54 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Upton isn't a risk. Upton is an almost guaranteed loss.

so his numbers are completely because of the ballpark? C'mon...
Obviously there is something with him that is causing the Dbacks to be shopping him, but you can't deny the numbers he has put up...and he's only 25.


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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:51 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Upton isn't a risk. Upton is an almost guaranteed loss.

so his numbers are completely because of the ballpark? C'mon...
Obviously there is something with him that is causing the Dbacks to be shopping him, but you can't deny the numbers he has put up...and he's only 25.

You are right: Upton's numbers cannot be denied. In Chase Field, Upton hits like Andrew McCutchen (.937 OPS at home). Everywhere else, he hits like Alex Presley (.731 OPS on the road). Those numbers cannot be denied.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, get your package together!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:09 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Upton isn't a risk. Upton is an almost guaranteed loss.

so his numbers are completely because of the ballpark? C'mon...
Obviously there is something with him that is causing the Dbacks to be shopping him, but you can't deny the numbers he has put up...and he's only 25.

Maybe the Dbacks want a guy who hits in more than half of their games every season.

A player's home park can have a profound effect on his yearly numbers..

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