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 Post subject: espn.com article - 20 most depressing facts
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:26 pm 
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http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/fandom ... ts-of-2012.

Sad but true.


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 Post subject: Re: espn.com article - 20 most depressing facts
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:45 pm 
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I had to stop reading about half way through. As bad as watching a car wreck...


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 Post subject: Re: espn.com article - 20 most depressing facts
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:46 pm 
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Eh. Look, there's spilled milk... let's keep crying over it. This isn't intended at you NYCbuc, but rather at the national (and local) pundits who continue to rehash the end of the season.

Season is over, and what's done is done. We can choose to look forward to next year, or not. This is a team with a young core group that needs to have their growing pains. We can let them learn from the last two seasons, or we can continue to bring up the failures of September 2012. Meh... I'm done fretting over this past season. I've moved on, and look forward to spring training. Someone else can clean up the milk spilled the past month.


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 Post subject: Re: espn.com article - 20 most depressing facts
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:22 pm 
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Wow...that was a brutal read.


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 Post subject: Re: espn.com article - 20 most depressing facts
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:57 pm 
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Yes . . .brutal. I was just struck by some the tragic-poetry of some of the facts . . . like the fact that our perfect 9th inning record was shattered in the 81st loss, emblematic of the late season bullpen implosion, like having perhaps the fastest man in baseball with a stolen base percentage lower than any team (other than PBC). And our boys continue to sputter when it matters most while our cast-offs thrive (Brandon Moss, Nate McLouth, Pedro Ciriaco).


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 Post subject: Re: espn.com article - 20 most depressing facts
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:43 pm 
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NYC-Buc wrote:
Yes . . .brutal. I was just struck by some the tragic-poetry of some of the facts . . . like the fact that our perfect 9th inning record was shattered in the 81st loss, emblematic of the late season bullpen implosion, like having perhaps the fastest man in baseball with a stolen base percentage lower than any team (other than PBC). And our boys continue to sputter when it matters most while our cast-offs thrive (Brandon Moss, Nate McLouth, Pedro Ciriaco).


Come on Ciriaco is not a ML SS. He was terrible down the stretch defensively and offensively. Moss is a Phillies castoff too, they let him go after we did. McLouth was here and stunk, how can you fault them there? If you're upset about losing these guys you need help.

No one mentions LaRoche, Milledge, Cedeno, etc that left and continued to stink.

No one mentions when we get a player who stunk who does well for us like Grilli, Resop, Gaby, etc.

I wish there was a study of other teams and this type of phenomena, I imagine in small samples it happens quite often in both directions.

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 Post subject: Re: espn.com article - 20 most depressing facts
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:57 pm 
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I'm not saying that Moss, McLouth or Ciriaco had earned the right not to be released. All three failed miserably time after time in Pittsburgh, and I'm not faulting NH for letting them go. And its definitely true that many other (most other) castoffs continued their suckiness. Just noting that its another example of PBC being tragically snakebit.


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 Post subject: Re: espn.com article - 20 most depressing facts
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:09 pm 
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NYC-Buc wrote:
I'm not saying that Moss, McLouth or Ciriaco had earned the right not to be released. All three failed miserably time after time in Pittsburgh, and I'm not faulting NH for letting them go. And its definitely true that many other (most other) castoffs continued their suckiness. Just noting that its another example of PBC being tragically snakebit.

It's NH's fault because the people who he hired to get the most out of his players have failed. Look at all the guys who sucked in Pittsburgh, but then suddenly found themselves in different organizations. Shows how bad the buccos coaching staff is. Who is a guy who struggled on another team mightly that the pirates actually turned around?! I can only think of 2 and that is Garret Jones and Hanrahan. They tried alot of projects to get young high potential guys turned around and they couldn't do anything with them, while other teams could.

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 Post subject: Re: espn.com article - 20 most depressing facts
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:48 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
NYC-Buc wrote:
I'm not saying that Moss, McLouth or Ciriaco had earned the right not to be released. All three failed miserably time after time in Pittsburgh, and I'm not faulting NH for letting them go. And its definitely true that many other (most other) castoffs continued their suckiness. Just noting that its another example of PBC being tragically snakebit.

It's NH's fault because the people who he hired to get the most out of his players have failed. Look at all the guys who sucked in Pittsburgh, but then suddenly found themselves in different organizations. Shows how bad the buccos coaching staff is. Who is a guy who struggled on another team mightly that the pirates actually turned around?! I can only think of 2 and that is Garret Jones and Hanrahan. They tried alot of projects to get young high potential guys turned around and they couldn't do anything with them, while other teams could.


What about Neil Walker, Pedro Alvarez, Jason Grilli, Jeff Karstens, and Evan Meek?

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 Post subject: Re: espn.com article - 20 most depressing facts
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:57 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Ryann wrote:
NYC-Buc wrote:
I'm not saying that Moss, McLouth or Ciriaco had earned the right not to be released. All three failed miserably time after time in Pittsburgh, and I'm not faulting NH for letting them go. And its definitely true that many other (most other) castoffs continued their suckiness. Just noting that its another example of PBC being tragically snakebit.

It's NH's fault because the people who he hired to get the most out of his players have failed. Look at all the guys who sucked in Pittsburgh, but then suddenly found themselves in different organizations. Shows how bad the buccos coaching staff is. Who is a guy who struggled on another team mightly that the pirates actually turned around?! I can only think of 2 and that is Garret Jones and Hanrahan. They tried alot of projects to get young high potential guys turned around and they couldn't do anything with them, while other teams could.


What about Neil Walker, Pedro Alvarez, Jason Grilli, Jeff Karstens, and Evan Meek?


I was going to cite Brian Giles, but he really didn't 'fail' in Cleveland.

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 Post subject: Re: espn.com article - 20 most depressing facts
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:02 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Ryann wrote:
NYC-Buc wrote:
I'm not saying that Moss, McLouth or Ciriaco had earned the right not to be released. All three failed miserably time after time in Pittsburgh, and I'm not faulting NH for letting them go. And its definitely true that many other (most other) castoffs continued their suckiness. Just noting that its another example of PBC being tragically snakebit.

It's NH's fault because the people who he hired to get the most out of his players have failed. Look at all the guys who sucked in Pittsburgh, but then suddenly found themselves in different organizations. Shows how bad the buccos coaching staff is. Who is a guy who struggled on another team mightly that the pirates actually turned around?! I can only think of 2 and that is Garret Jones and Hanrahan. They tried alot of projects to get young high potential guys turned around and they couldn't do anything with them, while other teams could.


What about Neil Walker, Pedro Alvarez, Jason Grilli, Jeff Karstens, and Evan Meek?

Meek you consider a success? He has had one single good season, and now after a years in this organization he has regressed. Grilli is fair enough although he was an ok reliever in the past. Karstens has been okay, but nothing like guys such as Jose Bautista.
Walker and Alvarez? Those are guys who have always been in this organization and were top of the draft talent. Really hard to screw up hitters with that much talent taken so high in the draft.

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 Post subject: Re: espn.com article - 20 most depressing facts
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:04 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Meek you consider a success? He has had one single good season, and now after a years in this organization he has regressed. Grilli is fair enough although he was an ok reliever in the past. Karstens has been okay, but nothing like guys such as Jose Bautista.
Walker and Alvarez? Those are guys who have always been in this organization and were top of the draft talent. Really hard to screw up hitters with that much talent taken so high in the draft.


What about the eight other teams that cast off Bautista? I think someone made a point that its not just the Bucs. The case of Bautista though, I can't blame them. I mean are we really supposed to wait until players are 30 years old? He was given every opportunity to perform and failed repeatedly.


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 Post subject: Re: espn.com article - 20 most depressing facts
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:59 pm 
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I'll be honest, the wounds are still too fresh for me. I started reading and stopped almost immediately. I'm still shell-shocked. I haven't even watched an inning of the playoffs. Ugh.

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 Post subject: Re: espn.com article - 20 most depressing facts
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:30 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Meek you consider a success? He has had one single good season, and now after a years in this organization he has regressed. Grilli is fair enough although he was an ok reliever in the past. Karstens has been okay, but nothing like guys such as Jose Bautista.
Walker and Alvarez? Those are guys who have always been in this organization and were top of the draft talent. Really hard to screw up hitters with that much talent taken so high in the draft.


What about the eight other teams that cast off Bautista? I think someone made a point that its not just the Bucs. The case of Bautista though, I can't blame them. I mean are we really supposed to wait until players are 30 years old? He was given every opportunity to perform and failed repeatedly.

He didn't play for 30 others teams? The coaching staff on the Pirates failed to get anything out of him...the next team he went to in the Blue Jays, their coaching staff did infact bring out the best in him. Pirates coaching staff has often failed to bring out the best in their players.

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 Post subject: Re: espn.com article - 20 most depressing facts
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:51 am 
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Ryann wrote:
rellimie wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Meek you consider a success? He has had one single good season, and now after a years in this organization he has regressed. Grilli is fair enough although he was an ok reliever in the past. Karstens has been okay, but nothing like guys such as Jose Bautista.
Walker and Alvarez? Those are guys who have always been in this organization and were top of the draft talent. Really hard to screw up hitters with that much talent taken so high in the draft.


What about the eight other teams that cast off Bautista? I think someone made a point that its not just the Bucs. The case of Bautista though, I can't blame them. I mean are we really supposed to wait until players are 30 years old? He was given every opportunity to perform and failed repeatedly.

He didn't play for 30 others teams? The coaching staff on the Pirates failed to get anything out of him...the next team he went to in the Blue Jays, their coaching staff did infact bring out the best in him. Pirates coaching staff has often failed to bring out the best in their players.

In fairness, the same is true for the Blue Jays coaching staff. See Colby Rasmus, Jeff Mathis and Brett Lawrie: all first round picks, all stars in the minors, all underwhelming in the majors. And then there's the curious case of Adam Lind.

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 Post subject: Re: espn.com article - 20 most depressing facts
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:30 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
rellimie wrote:
Ryann wrote:
Meek you consider a success? He has had one single good season, and now after a years in this organization he has regressed. Grilli is fair enough although he was an ok reliever in the past. Karstens has been okay, but nothing like guys such as Jose Bautista.
Walker and Alvarez? Those are guys who have always been in this organization and were top of the draft talent. Really hard to screw up hitters with that much talent taken so high in the draft.


What about the eight other teams that cast off Bautista? I think someone made a point that its not just the Bucs. The case of Bautista though, I can't blame them. I mean are we really supposed to wait until players are 30 years old? He was given every opportunity to perform and failed repeatedly.

He didn't play for 30 others teams? The coaching staff on the Pirates failed to get anything out of him...the next team he went to in the Blue Jays, their coaching staff did infact bring out the best in him. Pirates coaching staff has often failed to bring out the best in their players.


Meek had 2 good seasons. His 2009 season was good also. He got injured and it looks like it killed his career. That cant be helped.

Bautista was a bench player for Toronto before he finally got it.

I brought Walker and Alvarez into the conversation because Walker was looking like he was only going to be a bench guy before management decided to plug him in at 2nd base and Alvarez because of him finally showing power after an awful 2011.

Karstens was cut and came back and has looked good when he is healthy.

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 Post subject: Re: espn.com article - 20 most depressing facts
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:37 pm 
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I can blame the Pirates for missing on Bautista.

We chose Andy LaRoche over Bautista. Within a couple of years, Bautista had become a homerun champion while Andy became a Walmart greeter.

Even if we wanted to give LaRoche a shot at third, we could have kept Bautista around for very little. Instead we traded him for a borderline player who also never amounted to anything.

The talent misjudgements from the Pirates are astounding, from the Cam Bonifay era on through to today.


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