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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:31 pm 
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I'm worried about Hanrahan's durability and control. Let's face it, he didn't look very good from the All Star break on.


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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:32 pm 
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val wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
val wrote:
I'm not. At least with Hanrahan. We need to get better, not worse, and trading down on a quality reliever is not a way to do that, esp with the current brain trust's record in trades. I get the whole peak value concept, but it's a loser's game. And of course there is no guarantee that we'll get anyone as good.


Hanrahan has one year of control left and will make $7 million. It makes no sense to commit that much payroll to a closer who will leave as a FA for no return after 2013. Closers can be found anywhere. Fernando Rodney just had perhaps the greatest season in the history of closers and he is a career 4+ ERA middle reliever.

Much easier to find those guys in hindsight. How many former middling middle relievers still were middling this year? You said closers could be found anywhere. I disagree. Bodies can be found anywhere. The kind of quality pieces that are needed to put a team together that could contend for the division are not to be found just anywhere.


I'll revise to - closers are found everywhere, every year. There is nothing special about getting 3 outs starting with the bases empty. We have plenty of live arms to fill that role. Joel's skill set isn't very special when he throws 95 with a on and off slider. He actually had a negative WAR this year. The bottom line isn't so much if Jel is good, its about building a winner and $7 million for a 1 year closer isn't the best allocation of resources for this team. For other teams (with more money) that would be a bargain and we can leverage that into talent to fill greater needs. Last year closers fetched Josh Reddick (30HR OF) and Jed Lowrie (power hitting SS).

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:14 pm 
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I don't want them trading ANYONE unless they are getting major league talent that can improve the team for THIS COMING season.

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:29 am 
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Yeah that was Littlefield's mantra, always looking for major league ready talent. The players he got may have been major league ready, but their talent was marginal.


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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:04 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
I don't want them trading ANYONE unless they are getting major league talent that can improve the team for THIS COMING season.


Agreed. And that ML ready talent should be less than late-30's.

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:53 pm 
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val wrote:
Much easier to find those guys in hindsight. How many former middling middle relievers still were middling this year? You said closers could be found anywhere. I disagree. Bodies can be found anywhere. The kind of quality pieces that are needed to put a team together that could contend for the division are not to be found just anywhere.

Closers grown on trees and bushes, or spring up from trash heaps like fungi. What was Hanrahan when we traded for him? A failed reliever carrying an ERA north of 7.00.

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:53 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
I don't want them trading ANYONE unless they are getting major league talent that can improve the team for THIS COMING season.

Thank you David Littlefield, that worked SO well the last time you tried it.

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:33 pm 
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I would trade Hanrahan for a stud AA SS.

One thing I have wondered is why don't teams seem to ever trade top prospects at one position where they are solid for one where they have a hole. That way you are giving away no years of control.


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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:48 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Ryann wrote:
I don't want them trading ANYONE unless they are getting major league talent that can improve the team for THIS COMING season.

Thank you David Littlefield, that worked SO well the last time you tried it.

David Littlefield did that when the team was no where close to being a competitive team...

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:49 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Ryann wrote:
I don't want them trading ANYONE unless they are getting major league talent that can improve the team for THIS COMING season.

Thank you David Littlefield, that worked SO well the last time you tried it.

David Littlefield did that when the team was no where close to being a competitive team...

The main reason that they were nowhere close to being a competitive team is because Dave Littlefield kept doing that.

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:44 pm 
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He did that when the team was no where close to competitive. You are a moron if you want them to trade our major league pieces for more prospects. Shit they will never have a winning team, just keep trading the major league talent for more prospects. The time to strike is this offseason, they need to go out and improve the major league roster first and foremost.

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:50 am 
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If this team is going to strike while the iron is hot, then ownership needs to go out and get major league talent, while opening their pocket book. So lets go the other end of the scale and suppose they say we are going to up grade the team to make sure we are competing against the Reds, because lets face it, the Reds are cream of our division and are poised to remain that way for the next several years. Lets say they are going to open up the check book what do players like

LF---Josh Hamilton
RF---Nick Swisher
SS---Jhonny Peralta
C---A.J. Pierzynski
P----Zack Greinke

What do they cost? Those are the guys who are on the market that will make this team competitive with Reds and vault this team to the top of the NL.

Again as I stated before, if you are content with 82 wins then screw it don't do anything and this team might get there next year. If you want a wild card team then pick up two of those players. World Series contender they need all five. So what do they cost? They will cost at least what the Pirates Payroll is right now. I don't believe this team will advance 63 million to five guys.

Something needs to change and they are caught between a rock and a hard place. This team, the way it is can't contend with its current roster. So tell me who is out there that will make this team ready to Win the World Series?


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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:25 pm 
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johnswahoo wrote:
Lets say they are going to open up the check book what do players like

LF---Josh Hamilton
RF---Nick Swisher
SS---Jhonny Peralta
C---A.J. Pierzynski
P----Zack Greinke


There are a few more potential 'available' P's, too.

Does Edwin have an option with the Nats? Is Lester available for the Sawks? Tampa would seem capable, if not eager, to move James Shields or other more 'veteran'/'pricey' SP's...

Grienke does intrigue though, as it's well known his dislike of 'major markets'. The Sawks and/or Yanks will probably offer him the moon, but we'll see if that matters...

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:14 am 
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Those of you wanting the Bucs to fire Hurdle and bring in someone else... I hear Jim Tracy is available... ;) :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:21 pm 
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johnswahoo wrote:
If this team is going to strike while the iron is hot, then ownership needs to go out and get major league talent, while opening their pocket book. So lets go the other end of the scale and suppose they say we are going to up grade the team to make sure we are competing against the Reds, because lets face it, the Reds are cream of our division and are poised to remain that way for the next several years. Lets say they are going to open up the check book what do players like

LF---Josh Hamilton
RF---Nick Swisher
SS---Jhonny Peralta
C---A.J. Pierzynski
P----Zack Greinke

What do they cost? Those are the guys who are on the market that will make this team competitive with Reds and vault this team to the top of the NL.

Again as I stated before, if you are content with 82 wins then screw it don't do anything and this team might get there next year. If you want a wild card team then pick up two of those players. World Series contender they need all five. So what do they cost? They will cost at least what the Pirates Payroll is right now. I don't believe this team will advance 63 million to five guys.

Something needs to change and they are caught between a rock and a hard place. This team, the way it is can't contend with its current roster. So tell me who is out there that will make this team ready to Win the World Series?


None of these players will help the Pirates win a WS. Greinke would be the only really attractive player and he will get $18 million a year or more for 5 to 7 years. Stop pretending we can afford high end free agents. Even if we could, high ticket guys are rarely worth the cash.

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:48 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
johnswahoo wrote:
If this team is going to strike while the iron is hot, then ownership needs to go out and get major league talent, while opening their pocket book. So lets go the other end of the scale and suppose they say we are going to up grade the team to make sure we are competing against the Reds, because lets face it, the Reds are cream of our division and are poised to remain that way for the next several years. Lets say they are going to open up the check book what do players like

LF---Josh Hamilton
RF---Nick Swisher
SS---Jhonny Peralta
C---A.J. Pierzynski
P----Zack Greinke

What do they cost? Those are the guys who are on the market that will make this team competitive with Reds and vault this team to the top of the NL.

Again as I stated before, if you are content with 82 wins then screw it don't do anything and this team might get there next year. If you want a wild card team then pick up two of those players. World Series contender they need all five. So what do they cost? They will cost at least what the Pirates Payroll is right now. I don't believe this team will advance 63 million to five guys.

Something needs to change and they are caught between a rock and a hard place. This team, the way it is can't contend with its current roster. So tell me who is out there that will make this team ready to Win the World Series?


None of these players will help the Pirates win a WS. Greinke would be the only really attractive player and he will get $18 million a year or more for 5 to 7 years. Stop pretending we can afford high end free agents. Even if we could, high ticket guys are rarely worth the cash.

Are you serious?? Not one of those guys would help us? You are crazy.

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:16 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
johnswahoo wrote:
If this team is going to strike while the iron is hot, then ownership needs to go out and get major league talent, while opening their pocket book. So lets go the other end of the scale and suppose they say we are going to up grade the team to make sure we are competing against the Reds, because lets face it, the Reds are cream of our division and are poised to remain that way for the next several years. Lets say they are going to open up the check book what do players like

LF---Josh Hamilton
RF---Nick Swisher
SS---Jhonny Peralta
C---A.J. Pierzynski
P----Zack Greinke

What do they cost? Those are the guys who are on the market that will make this team competitive with Reds and vault this team to the top of the NL.

Again as I stated before, if you are content with 82 wins then screw it don't do anything and this team might get there next year. If you want a wild card team then pick up two of those players. World Series contender they need all five. So what do they cost? They will cost at least what the Pirates Payroll is right now. I don't believe this team will advance 63 million to five guys.

Something needs to change and they are caught between a rock and a hard place. This team, the way it is can't contend with its current roster. So tell me who is out there that will make this team ready to Win the World Series?


None of these players will help the Pirates win a WS. Greinke would be the only really attractive player and he will get $18 million a year or more for 5 to 7 years. Stop pretending we can afford high end free agents. Even if we could, high ticket guys are rarely worth the cash.

Are you serious?? Not one of those guys would help us? You are crazy.


They won't help us because they will cost too much (Hamilton, Swisher, or Greinke), arn't any good (AJ, unless you buy a career year at age 35), or arn't free agents (Peralta). Go back to playing video game baseball. In the real world the Pirates will not be handing out 5 year $75+ million dollar deals to free agents. None of those players will help the Pirates win a WS because none of them are going to be Pirates.

I would think with all the big ticket FA disasters of the last decade in MLB that we would be past the whole "let's sign 30+ year old player X and we'll win it all" kind of thinking. Laying out big bucks and many years for the top of the FA class is bound to fail. I would also think that the Rays sustained success in teh toughest division in baseball would be a clear enough blueprint for how to do it as a small revenue team. Here's a hint, it doesn't include long term free agent contracts.

Seriously, where is the example of this approach working in the last decade? Maye we can be the next 2012 Marlins! Get some players to help Mike Stanton and HanRam, great plan!

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:03 pm 
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While he hasn't lived up to the hype of his spectacular 2009 season, Zack Grienke would still be a major coup for the Pirates.

It's highly unrealistic he'd sign with the Pirates, mainly as pretty much every other team will be able to offer him more and/or the Pirates do not have a history of pursuing those types of players, but he'd check a few boxes for them.

A 200+ IP, sub-4 ERA, 8+ K/9, entering-his prime hurler might eat up most, if not all of the Bucs potential 'FA' $, but as there don't seem to be equally viable options on the market @ C and SS, Grienke would be a solid pursuit.

Alternatively, signing an Edwin-type or two, or trading for one or two of them (Lester, Garza, Shields, etc.) would also suffice.

In any event, unless a killer deal for a prime hitter (at a position of need) does fall on the lap of NH and co., at least tossing a hat into the Grienke race can't hurt.

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:13 pm 
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Also, as far as closers go (if Hanrahan is moved), Joakim Soria intrigues.

Sure, there's the coming-off-of-an-injury aspect, but that might actually drive down his market value.

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:31 am 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
Also, as far as closers go (if Hanrahan is moved), Joakim Soria intrigues.

Sure, there's the coming-off-of-an-injury aspect, but that might actually drive down his market value.

I'd be more interested in trying someone from within the system, like Bryan Morris or Justin Wilson.

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