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 Post subject: So what's next?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:08 am 
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Earlier in August, I acknowledged that this team would finish 78-84. When I made that comment on August 13th people who followed me thought I was crazy but I had actually felt this was going to be a reality. I was able to make the same prediction lost season only one week earlier. So the argument I made throughout the season was not address when the trade deadline came around, this team needed a #3 pitcher and a solid right handed 8th inning guy. We also needed a LF or SS who could lead off and get on base. Again, didn't happen.
So now what do we do. This team spent money, almost 63m (some of that is picked up by the Yankees but still far below many of the other teams in the league. The issue is this team is they still have financial restraints that will impact them next year. Public will be looking for the big paycheck for Neil Walker. What do they do?
Three things will make this team better. Call me crazy and I might be but it has worked for other teams. Trade-Andrew McCutcheon-Joel Hanrahan and A.J. Burnett.
Move Marte to CF--Sign Neil Walker---Move Garrett Jones to full-time 1b----Snider to full time RF

Trade for a leadoff LF---Get a #5 hitting SS and a #3 or #2 pitcher and a #1 future Pitcher.
Get that and this team next year finishes 79-83 too...if you don't do that you still finish the same.
However, now you have a team in 2014 that brings up Coles, Bell, Heredia--Henson and Ramirez in 2015 and Taillon somewhere in between.
Ramirez will play CF Bell will play 3b perhaps he moves to 1b. Henson at SS the other three would #1-#2-#3
To me this team is not ready to contend until 2016, but when this team arrives it will be potent. But they must be willing to trade these three players if they want to improve their future. If they don't make a bold move in the off season it might be longer than 2016.


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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:07 am 
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I'll call you crazy for a few of reasons.

First...trade McCutchen?!?!?!? Not even worth debating the insanity of that statement.

Second...you state that on August 13th you posted this team would finish 78-84. Interesting...the last post you had on this board before this one was on July 31 and it was about trade acquisitions. Maybe you are confusing this board with another one?

Finally, name one #5 hitting SS that is even remotely available?


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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:09 am 
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Chris Anderson wrote:
First...trade McCutchen?!?!?!? Not even worth debating the insanity of that statement.


I stopped at this.

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:58 am 
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I'm sure the club is going to see what they can get out of the hammer and Gi Jones in the offseason. If they can find a shortstop and another starter/ bullpen Guy I'd include barmes in it.


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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:16 pm 
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Trade Cutch? um....NO.

I'm all for trading Jones and Hanrahan at their peak value. We need a quality starter BAD. We need a SS with some pop BAD. Barmes killed too many scoring opportunities to count.

I think we could get away with a platoon catcher to go with McKenry.


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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:18 pm 
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I'll also add some bullpen depth.

Resop needs to go.


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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:07 pm 
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VanSlick wrote:
Trade Cutch? um....NO.

I'm all for trading Jones and Hanrahan at their peak value. We need a quality starter BAD. We need a SS with some pop BAD. Barmes killed too many scoring opportunities to count.

I think we could get away with a platoon catcher to go with McKenry.

I'm not. At least with Hanrahan. We need to get better, not worse, and trading down on a quality reliever is not a way to do that, esp with the current brain trust's record in trades. I get the whole peak value concept, but it's a loser's game. And of course there is no guarantee that we'll get anyone as good.


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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:12 pm 
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val wrote:
VanSlick wrote:
Trade Cutch? um....NO.

I'm all for trading Jones and Hanrahan at their peak value. We need a quality starter BAD. We need a SS with some pop BAD. Barmes killed too many scoring opportunities to count.

I think we could get away with a platoon catcher to go with McKenry.

I'm not. At least with Hanrahan. We need to get better, not worse, and trading down on a quality reliever is not a way to do that, esp with the current brain trust's record in trades. I get the whole peak value concept, but it's a loser's game. And of course there is no guarantee that we'll get anyone as good.


Hanrahan has one year of control left and will make $7 million. It makes no sense to commit that much payroll to a closer who will leave as a FA for no return after 2013. Closers can be found anywhere. Fernando Rodney just had perhaps the greatest season in the history of closers and he is a career 4+ ERA middle reliever.

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:55 pm 
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I posted it on twitter, didn't say here. My point of trading Andrew McCutchen was two fold. He is the most valuable player on this team he is also a bargin considering what the Pirates signed him too. They are lucky they signed him for the money they did, if they signed him at the end of this year he would be asking for Matt Kemp money.
What would a team be willing to give the Pirates in return for a player like Andrew McCutchen in this market? is he going to the one player who will make this team a World Series contender? I use World Series contender because after 20 years this team should aspire to contend for the World Series. Not a 82 win season, not a Wild Card team and not even a team that is playing in NLDS. I want a team who is playing for the NLCS and making the next step to playing for the World Series.
Andrew McCutchen will make $4.5, $7.25, $10 million in the three arbitration years that the Pirates bought out, concluding in 2015. 2016 and 17' the Pirates will owe him $28 million per yr and there is no guarantee he will be around after that, guess what, he'll only be 30.
Perhaps not trading him this year but possibly next could also be option. But again I ask, what would a team give for a player like him. What is the return value for a player like him. I know damn well this team will not want to pay $56 million if they are still floundering as a team that is just breaking the line of being a 1 or 2 wild card team.
This team is not positioned nor has management given any indication they are willing to help this team improved by paying money to FA who will really help to improve this team other than getting players who have been the run of the mill FA pickup. Can't add AJ to that mix because we got him via trade.
If anybody can convince me that he is the missing key to making this team a World Series contender I am willing to listen but until that time, striking while the iron is hot picking up players who are going to fill additional postions that we are lacking and putting this team in position to have players who will be able to bolster our team for stretch run or to be used for trade to help us.
We have that opportunity right now. When Oakland traded way Gio Gonzales last season many of you would have reacted the same way you are now. How they hell could the A's trade away a 21 game winner. They had too, they had zero choice if they wanted to stay relevant. The worst thing the Pirates ever did over the last 20 years was to have traded a player in their contract year. They got less in return because a team knew the Pirates were just trying to get something in return for a player they couldn't keep. They need to change the philosophy of how they trade players by doing it before they are knocking at the FA market.
As I stated before, if he isn't the final chip of making us a World Series contender right now, by 2016 when we owe the first $28 million, the chances are pretty good the Pirates will be looking to shop him. Guess what, only his age will be the benefit. Some teams might be willing to give us less for his services because of the money he'll be owed. So before saying I am crazy, you must ask if he is the missing piece or do we have way too many issues on this team?


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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:07 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
val wrote:
VanSlick wrote:
I'm all for trading Jones and Hanrahan at their peak value. We need a quality starter BAD. We need a SS with some pop BAD. Barmes killed too many scoring opportunities to count.

I think we could get away with a platoon catcher to go with McKenry.

I'm not. At least with Hanrahan. We need to get better, not worse, and trading down on a quality reliever is not a way to do that, esp with the current brain trust's record in trades. I get the whole peak value concept, but it's a loser's game. And of course there is no guarantee that we'll get anyone as good.


Hanrahan has one year of control left and will make $7 million. It makes no sense to commit that much payroll to a closer who will leave as a FA for no return after 2013. Closers can be found anywhere. Fernando Rodney just had perhaps the greatest season in the history of closers and he is a career 4+ ERA middle reliever.

Much easier to find those guys in hindsight. How many former middling middle relievers still were middling this year? You said closers could be found anywhere. I disagree. Bodies can be found anywhere. The kind of quality pieces that are needed to put a team together that could contend for the division are not to be found just anywhere.


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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:31 pm 
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I'm worried about Hanrahan's durability and control. Let's face it, he didn't look very good from the All Star break on.


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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:32 pm 
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val wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
val wrote:
I'm not. At least with Hanrahan. We need to get better, not worse, and trading down on a quality reliever is not a way to do that, esp with the current brain trust's record in trades. I get the whole peak value concept, but it's a loser's game. And of course there is no guarantee that we'll get anyone as good.


Hanrahan has one year of control left and will make $7 million. It makes no sense to commit that much payroll to a closer who will leave as a FA for no return after 2013. Closers can be found anywhere. Fernando Rodney just had perhaps the greatest season in the history of closers and he is a career 4+ ERA middle reliever.

Much easier to find those guys in hindsight. How many former middling middle relievers still were middling this year? You said closers could be found anywhere. I disagree. Bodies can be found anywhere. The kind of quality pieces that are needed to put a team together that could contend for the division are not to be found just anywhere.


I'll revise to - closers are found everywhere, every year. There is nothing special about getting 3 outs starting with the bases empty. We have plenty of live arms to fill that role. Joel's skill set isn't very special when he throws 95 with a on and off slider. He actually had a negative WAR this year. The bottom line isn't so much if Jel is good, its about building a winner and $7 million for a 1 year closer isn't the best allocation of resources for this team. For other teams (with more money) that would be a bargain and we can leverage that into talent to fill greater needs. Last year closers fetched Josh Reddick (30HR OF) and Jed Lowrie (power hitting SS).

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:14 pm 
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I don't want them trading ANYONE unless they are getting major league talent that can improve the team for THIS COMING season.

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:29 am 
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Yeah that was Littlefield's mantra, always looking for major league ready talent. The players he got may have been major league ready, but their talent was marginal.


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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:04 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
I don't want them trading ANYONE unless they are getting major league talent that can improve the team for THIS COMING season.


Agreed. And that ML ready talent should be less than late-30's.

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:53 pm 
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val wrote:
Much easier to find those guys in hindsight. How many former middling middle relievers still were middling this year? You said closers could be found anywhere. I disagree. Bodies can be found anywhere. The kind of quality pieces that are needed to put a team together that could contend for the division are not to be found just anywhere.

Closers grown on trees and bushes, or spring up from trash heaps like fungi. What was Hanrahan when we traded for him? A failed reliever carrying an ERA north of 7.00.

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:53 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
I don't want them trading ANYONE unless they are getting major league talent that can improve the team for THIS COMING season.

Thank you David Littlefield, that worked SO well the last time you tried it.

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:33 pm 
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I would trade Hanrahan for a stud AA SS.

One thing I have wondered is why don't teams seem to ever trade top prospects at one position where they are solid for one where they have a hole. That way you are giving away no years of control.


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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:48 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Ryann wrote:
I don't want them trading ANYONE unless they are getting major league talent that can improve the team for THIS COMING season.

Thank you David Littlefield, that worked SO well the last time you tried it.

David Littlefield did that when the team was no where close to being a competitive team...

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 Post subject: Re: So what's next?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:49 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Ryann wrote:
I don't want them trading ANYONE unless they are getting major league talent that can improve the team for THIS COMING season.

Thank you David Littlefield, that worked SO well the last time you tried it.

David Littlefield did that when the team was no where close to being a competitive team...

The main reason that they were nowhere close to being a competitive team is because Dave Littlefield kept doing that.

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