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 Post subject: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:53 pm 
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From all accounts he's a helluva humanitarian and a fine motivator, but when there is a collapse the magnitude of what we've seen a managerial change just has to happen. I know he got the Bucs to the positive point of from there it was a total collapse, but he was the field manager and accountability has to take place.

And when a major late season collapse happens twice in a row the evidence is clear. He needs to be replaced.

I own a small business. I understand the need for accountability. If I don't insist on accountability I don't survive and my employees don't get paid. In a big business the same principle applies.


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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:48 pm 
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I don't know that it's clear that he must be replaced. Nutting has to do some evaluation at the top then if changes are made there, that management group needs to be the ones replacing Hurdle, Stark, etc... To be honest, I think Hurdle's seat is mighty cool when compared to FC and NH.

Nutting said the other day that he isn't going to make an emotional decision. I'm sure they'll give it some time after the season and evaluate where they stand as a ballclub.

The fact remains that Hurdle has taken two teams with almost zero talent and turned them into an exciting team to watch (at times). Remember, you can't polish a turd.

Hurdle is way down on my list of people who need to be fired.


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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:19 pm 
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only as good as your players


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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:46 pm 
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Clevelandsux wrote:
only as good as your players

Agree!! Joe Torre was a nobody before he managed the Yankees! I'd definitely give Clint another year or two.....if he wants to come back. I'm sure there's a ton of internal stuff that we will never know about.....stuff about Huntington, Coonelly, even Nutting and the players. But, overall, I think Hurdle has transformed this team into a team that we've all watched and enjoyed, even while pulling out our hair by the roots. Go Bucs!!


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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:54 pm 
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DocJeanO wrote:
Clevelandsux wrote:
only as good as your players

Agree!! Joe Torre was a nobody before he managed the Yankees! I'd definitely give Clint another year or two.....if he wants to come back. I'm sure there's a ton of internal stuff that we will never know about.....stuff about Huntington, Coonelly, even Nutting and the players. But, overall, I think Hurdle has transformed this team into a team that we've all watched and enjoyed, even while pulling out our hair by the roots. Go Bucs!!


Totally agree. Clint Hurdle is the least of the Bucs problems. Talent anyone???


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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:05 am 
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I get that he wasn't provided with all of the tools, and that for 2/3 of this season he overachieved. An "acceptable" collapse would have been finishing 84-78, not 78-84. As has already been pointed out, this has been the biggest collapse from the 110 game point forward of any so-called contending team.

Face it, the guy's overall management decision quality down the stretch was atrocious. And while last year's collapse could have been blamed in part on inexperience, when it happens again the guy immediately in charge should be held accountable.

And nowhere did I ever say his bosses' seats shouldn't be VERY hot. The lack of fundamentals shown by the whole roster is appalling.


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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:16 am 
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Clevelandsux wrote:
only as good as your players


True, but I give these guys more credit than these last 60 games.

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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:05 pm 
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DocJeanO wrote:
Clevelandsux wrote:
only as good as your players

Agree!! Joe Torre was a nobody before he managed the Yankees! I'd definitely give Clint another year or two.....if he wants to come back. I'm sure there's a ton of internal stuff that we will never know about.....stuff about Huntington, Coonelly, even Nutting and the players. But, overall, I think Hurdle has transformed this team into a team that we've all watched and enjoyed, even while pulling out our hair by the roots. Go Bucs!!


Joe Torre was not a nobody, he was a bordeline Hall of Famer with a MVP award.

I get what you're going for, but I think its not that simple. No one is going to hand CH the Yankees or Red Sox roster. Sure talent is the primary factor, a loyt of talent trumps bad managing and no talent trumps good managing. Where a manager matters is in between when you have OK talent. The Bucs will be in the OK talent range for the near future and a manager that can get us 5 extra wins is valuable.

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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:39 pm 
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NewMexicoLobo wrote:
From all accounts he's a helluva humanitarian and a fine motivator, but when there is a collapse the magnitude of what we've seen a managerial change just has to happen. I know he got the Bucs to the positive point of from there it was a total collapse, but he was the field manager and accountability has to take place.

And when a major late season collapse happens twice in a row the evidence is clear. He needs to be replaced.

I own a small business. I understand the need for accountability. If I don't insist on accountability I don't survive and my employees don't get paid. In a big business the same principle applies.

So when your employees are useless, do you fire yourself as their manager, or do you find some better employees?

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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:41 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
DocJeanO wrote:
Clevelandsux wrote:
only as good as your players

Agree!! Joe Torre was a nobody before he managed the Yankees! I'd definitely give Clint another year or two.....if he wants to come back. I'm sure there's a ton of internal stuff that we will never know about.....stuff about Huntington, Coonelly, even Nutting and the players. But, overall, I think Hurdle has transformed this team into a team that we've all watched and enjoyed, even while pulling out our hair by the roots. Go Bucs!!


Joe Torre was not a nobody, he was a bordeline Hall of Famer with a MVP award.

As a PLAYER. As a manager, they probably would have charged him extra to get into the Hall and see the exhibits, because he flat sucked.

Quote:
I get what you're going for, but I think its not that simple. No one is going to hand CH the Yankees or Red Sox roster. Sure talent is the primary factor, a loyt of talent trumps bad managing and no talent trumps good managing. Where a manager matters is in between when you have OK talent. The Bucs will be in the OK talent range for the near future and a manager that can get us 5 extra wins is valuable.

The manager that can get his team five extra wins has probably never been born.

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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:45 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
The manager that can get his team five extra wins has probably never been born.


I respectfully disagree. This isn't football/ basketball/ tennis/ lacrosse/ track/ etc. In baseball, a Manager's gametime decisions can indeed get you 5 extra wins or 5 extra losses. Pitching changes, hitting situations, etc. can definitely factor in a win or loss.


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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:05 pm 
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Charleston_Charlies wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
The manager that can get his team five extra wins has probably never been born.


I respectfully disagree. This isn't football/ basketball/ tennis/ lacrosse/ track/ etc. In baseball, a Manager's gametime decisions can indeed get you 5 extra wins or 5 extra losses. Pitching changes, hitting situations, etc. can definitely factor in a win or loss.


Don't forget "illogical attachment to light hitting, old and washed-up SS and C's" That definitely affected some games this year.


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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:30 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:

Quote:
I get what you're going for, but I think its not that simple. No one is going to hand CH the Yankees or Red Sox roster. Sure talent is the primary factor, a loyt of talent trumps bad managing and no talent trumps good managing. Where a manager matters is in between when you have OK talent. The Bucs will be in the OK talent range for the near future and a manager that can get us 5 extra wins is valuable.

The manager that can get his team five extra wins has probably never been born.



5 wins is exactly what most people say a manager can effect with strategy. You really think that is far fetched with all the control over lineups, bullpen usage, in game decisions?

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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:44 pm 
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Hurdle has a lot to do with managing the running game, especially our own stolen base attempts, and we are atrocious in that area.

We lead all of baseball in caught stealing and are last in stolen base percentage.

We have also allowed the most stolen bases of any team in the majors and are last in caught stealing so obviously we are also worst at preventing the stolen base in terms of percentage.

The numbers are atrocious and unacceptable and are a big reason why we lost so many games.

And I know that only part of the blame falls on Hurdle so it's not necessary to make that argument.


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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:07 pm 
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Charleston_Charlies wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
The manager that can get his team five extra wins has probably never been born.


I respectfully disagree. This isn't football/ basketball/ tennis/ lacrosse/ track/ etc. In baseball, a Manager's gametime decisions can indeed get you 5 extra wins or 5 extra losses. Pitching changes, hitting situations, etc. can definitely factor in a win or loss.

Don't agree at all. A huge percentage of the decisions made by the manager are by the book, no brainers that almost every manager would have made.

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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:42 am 
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I think a manager can lose games much more easily than he can win them. Maybe he either loses games or doesn't-lose games. And I think Hurdle lost some games.

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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:26 am 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
I think a manager can lose games much more easily than he can win them. Maybe he either loses games or doesn't-lose games. And I think Hurdle lost some games.

Agreed 100%. Most managers would improve their teams' records by merely letting the players play and not trying to put their friggin' stamp on each and every game.

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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:22 am 
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How about accountability for players? As in, Andrew McCutchen had a great year the season before this, but Andrew McCutchen still was not satisfied. So Andrew McCutchen went out in the off season and tinkered with his swing, found his weak spots, and came back a stronger player this year. The results were an MVP-like season. Maybe Pedro Alvarez or Starling Marte can take a cue from this?

There were definitely some bad coaching moves this year though, and we REALLY need someone to come in here and show these guys how to run the bases. There's too much speed to be that bad. Look what the Orioles and A's did this year in the AL, and I don't think either team has that much stronger of a roster than us. The Pirates certainly could have won 85-90 games this year. If you just look at the series they SHOULD have won 2-3 games in after the break, like against the Cubs, Pads, etc, there's so many wins left on the table.


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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:23 pm 
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Steelcurtain512 wrote:
As in, Andrew McCutchen had a great year the season before this, but Andrew McCutchen still was not satisfied. So Andrew McCutchen went out in the off season and tinkered with his swing, found his weak spots, and came back a stronger player this year. The results were an MVP-like season. Maybe Pedro Alvarez or Starling Marte can take a cue from this?


And/or Jose Tabata, maybe even Travis Snider. Agreed to the utmost.

This team obviously has potential energy and (1st half) chemistry, now all they need to do is prepare and work until they turn that potential and chemistry into consistent chemistry/energy .

Steelcurtain512 wrote:
The Pirates certainly could have won 85-90 games this year. If you just look at the series they SHOULD have won 2-3 games in after the break, like against the Cubs, Pads, etc, there's so many wins left on the table.


Agreed here, too. All well said.

The FO has it's question marks, but the players can still do what's best by them and progress without a 'perfect' FO.

The next step(s) forward are going to have to be a collective effort, but everyone is going to have to give individual effort, as part of the whole.

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 Post subject: Re: I love Clint Hurdle, but ...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:04 am 
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There was little question about Russell needing to go. Same is true of Tracy. When seen through that perspective Hurdle is golden. No, he has need for improvement but has my vote to stay.

Biggest problem in my mind is being overly loyal to older player at SS and C who hurt the team and played game after game without producing. That was sickening. Another major need is improvement in our base running. We started this year talking about running alot but were lousy at it. Something happened with SP after the break. Need to get that right next year.

It has been enjoyable watching the competetiveness of our team especially starting pitchers until the last months. So, he has raised the expectations of fans and fallen short of finishing the job. There is every reason to be hopeful that next year will show further development of our younger guys and with some additions at SP, SS, and C we could be on our way(don't forget the two superstuds coming soon to pitch).

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