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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:31 pm 
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My single biggest issue with this is for the past few weeks we have seen Bob Nutting say 'We won't evaluate things until the season is over'....then 8 games before the season is over they announce that all will stay on board. So when was the evaluation done? Is the only evaluation that matters Bob nutting looking at their haul of cash they made on the stadium being packed 3/4 of the season and thats it?

After the largest collapse after 105 games in MLB HISTORY, is there no deep self evaluation needed beyond, 'I got faith in these guys as baseball men'?


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:35 pm 
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Mister Pittsburgh wrote:
My single biggest issue with this is for the past few weeks we have seen Bob Nutting say 'We won't evaluate things until the season is over'....then 8 games before the season is over they announce that all will stay on board. So when was the evaluation done? Is the only evaluation that matters Bob nutting looking at their haul of cash they made on the stadium being packed 3/4 of the season and thats it?

After the largest collapse after 105 games in MLB HISTORY, is there no deep self evaluation needed beyond, 'I got faith in these guys as baseball men'?


Well Bob didn't say anything yet. This was all based on FC's comments. Maybe Bob will can them all since FC has tied himself with the rest.

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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:37 pm 
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Another take from someone who was following the NAVY SEAL stuff -

Comment From John
Are you on board with the Bucs (just announced) retaining of the front office for 2013?
12:35

Matt Klaassen:
That's tough for an outsider to evaluate for obvious reasons. The minor league instructionals thing seems insane, hopefully they get rid of that. Yeah, yeah, I know, I'm not inside, but seriously, hand-to-hand combat?

It really depends on how you see the team's young minor league talent. If it is progressing, then I think it's okay. If they aren't, the team doesn't have time to waste on changing direction. Yeah, the collapse is terrible, but did anyone realistically expect the Pirates to compete this year?

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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:41 pm 
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[quote="Barrys Dopers"]Another take from someone who was following the NAVY SEAL stuff -

Comment From John
Are you on board with the Bucs (just announced) retaining of the front office for 2013?
12:35

Matt Klaassen:
That's tough for an outsider to evaluate for obvious reasons. The minor league instructionals thing seems insane, hopefully they get rid of that. Yeah, yeah, I know, I'm not inside, but seriously, hand-to-hand combat?

It really depends on how you see the team's young minor league talent. If it is progressing, then I think it's okay. If they aren't, the team doesn't have time to waste on changing direction. Yeah, the collapse is terrible, but did anyone realistically expect the Pirates to compete this year?[/quote]

My single biggest issue with people thinking along those lines is this....Even if you didn't think we would win a world series or the division this year, or even a wild card, I am betting most thought we would be at or very, very near .500. Well we had a 16 game cushion at one point so even if they did 'come back down to their norm'....and play .500 ball, we still get a wildcard due to that cushion. I mean once they are 16 over, if they just play .500 ball down the stretch we end up with 90+wins! They didn't come back down to their level....they sunk so far below that level they are buried in that levels crap pile.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:48 pm 
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How many games during the hot streak in June and July did they win where it was pure luck? There were times they were playing crappy teams and squeaked a win out. This collapse is just the law of averages swinging back against them.

I predicted 75 wins this year back at the start of the season, but was hoping for .500.

This team is one more bat and one more pitcher away from going over the hump...

I think this offseason they need to make a few moves to get these guys. Hopefully the 16 games over .500 attracts a few guys who have blown off Pittsburgh as a possible destination in the past. (ex. Roy Oswalt)

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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:56 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
How many games during the hot streak in June and July did they win where it was pure luck? There were times they were playing crappy teams and squeaked a win out. This collapse is just the law of averages swinging back against them.

I predicted 75 wins this year back at the start of the season, but was hoping for .500.

This team is one more bat and one more pitcher away from going over the hump...

I think this offseason they need to make a few moves to get these guys. Hopefully the 16 games over .500 attracts a few guys who have blown off Pittsburgh as a possible destination in the past. (ex. Roy Oswalt)


Law of averages? Just karma huh? :roll: Sorry man, not buying it.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:05 pm 
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No I'm not buying that either. They have mostly looked terrible at all phases of the game. Messed up, bad news bears, totally lacking in fundamentals terrible, like you would expect the Houston Astros to look.

Last year was understandable; they were clearly lacking in talent late in the season. This year there's no excuse.

Yes I blame the players for choking beyond anyone's imagination, but I blame Hurdle and Huntington more.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:56 pm 
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Yea, enough with the law of averages crap.

We need one bat and one pitcher. Who? Huntington has shown no skill at acquiring major league talent through free agency. He is very "iffy" on trades, and never seems willing to trade in the offseason to acquire a solid player. Instead he signs Barajas type guys and wastes money. Players in our system? Cole and Taillon may be ready and I'm excited to see them, but who else? Not anyone that even looks remotely close to contributing to a major league roster. All the guys he always bragged about drafting they now say aren't major league starting material(Mercer, D'arnaud, etc). This guy has had 5 years and hasn't proven he has the skill to acquire talented players. Time to find someone who can...if your owner is really serious about winning.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:37 pm 
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As long as the organization accepts mediocrity it will continue to be mediocre. I dont want to hear anymore excuses. This team imploded. Its gonna be hard for me to get excited about this team next season no matter what our record is at any point in the season.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:33 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
I meant to link this earlier, Tim does a nice job making his case for why NH should not be fired. I don't agree with all of it, but its worth a read.

http://www.piratesprospects.com/2012/09 ... mpany.html

Good article. Thanks for the link.

I admit I was secretly hoping they'd fire Kyle Stark over his recent email kerfuffle and a gut sense that the Pirates are lousy at developing players. So it's helpful for me to read a more objective view.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:04 am 
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Nutting did an interview with DK in the Trib today - the highlights -

Nutting was made aware of Coonelly's statement, but his name appeared nowhere on it. And it turns out there's a reason for that: He's not done.

He plans to begin an intensive investigation after the season.

"I believe this review must be done," Nutting said. "But I honestly believe it's best done with a clear head after the raw nerves of the season have passed. Good decisions and good results seldom come from emotional overreactions."

And the focus?

"Clearly, the management team needs to make changes in certain areas. It's obvious that status quo is not an acceptable option. However, I also feel strongly that we've made significant progress in many areas. And we all saw in the first half of the season the promise and excitement of that progress."

Read more: http://triblive.com/sports/dejankovacev ... z27lzgBcBy
Follow us: @triblive on Twitter | triblive on Facebook

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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:39 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
Nutting did an interview with DK in the Trib today - the highlights -

Nutting was made aware of Coonelly's statement, but his name appeared nowhere on it. And it turns out there's a reason for that: He's not done.

He plans to begin an intensive investigation after the season.

"I believe this review must be done," Nutting said. "But I honestly believe it's best done with a clear head after the raw nerves of the season have passed. Good decisions and good results seldom come from emotional overreactions."

And the focus?

"Clearly, the management team needs to make changes in certain areas. It's obvious that status quo is not an acceptable option. However, I also feel strongly that we've made significant progress in many areas. And we all saw in the first half of the season the promise and excitement of that progress."

Read more: http://triblive.com/sports/dejankovacev ... z27lzgBcBy
Follow us: @triblive on Twitter | triblive on Facebook


Good to hear that Dopers. Thanks for posting that.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:04 pm 
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Just spitballing here...

Manny Acta fired. NH has had Cleveland loyalties in the past.

Not that I approve it, but...

Any chance he gets a look?

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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:24 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
Just spitballing here...

Manny Acta fired. NH has had Cleveland loyalties in the past.

Not that I approve it, but...

Any chance he gets a look?


Please Lord, no. His career .418 win % should be enough to scare teams off.

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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:09 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
Just spitballing here...

Manny Acta fired. NH has had Cleveland loyalties in the past.

Not that I approve it, but...

Any chance he gets a look?


Please Lord, no. His career .418 win % should be enough to scare teams off.

That's entirely unfair. Acta has been the manager of a laughably bad Washington team and a mediocre Cleveland team. He can only do so much with the players he's given. Using Acta's winning percentage to judge his managerial skills is like using Joe Torre's pre-Yankees record to do the same. Acta should be judged by the moves he makes, not by the quality of the teams he has been provided.

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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:32 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
Just spitballing here...

Manny Acta fired. NH has had Cleveland loyalties in the past.

Not that I approve it, but...

Any chance he gets a look?


Please Lord, no. His career .418 win % should be enough to scare teams off.

That's entirely unfair. Acta has been the manager of a laughably bad Washington team and a mediocre Cleveland team. He can only do so much with the players he's given. Using Acta's winning percentage to judge his managerial skills is like using Joe Torre's pre-Yankees record to do the same. Acta should be judged by the moves he makes, not by the quality of the teams he has been provided.


Oh for F'sake Wilton. I didn't "judge" his ability based on win percentage. Do you really think I would be so simplistic? Remember the posts about respecting others here, geez.

I said hopefully his win % would scare teams away. There really is no reason to dig any further, the guy has been fired twice within 3 years of his hiring. Acta has a reputation as a shaky manager -
http://wahoosonfirst.com/2012/09/13/the ... anny-acta/

His team's have collapsed in back to back seasons, just like the Bucs.

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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:47 pm 
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Terry Francona would make for a great manager in Pittsburgh, his hometown.

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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:23 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Terry Francona would make for a great manager in Pittsburgh, his hometown.


I wouldn't disagree.

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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:32 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
Terry Francona would make for a great manager in Pittsburgh, his hometown.


Agreed.

I wouldn't shed a tear if Hurdle were replaced by Francona.

However, I fear that's too big a dream.

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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:22 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
Just spitballing here...

Manny Acta fired. NH has had Cleveland loyalties in the past.

Not that I approve it, but...

Any chance he gets a look?


Please Lord, no. His career .418 win % should be enough to scare teams off.

That's entirely unfair. Acta has been the manager of a laughably bad Washington team and a mediocre Cleveland team. He can only do so much with the players he's given. Using Acta's winning percentage to judge his managerial skills is like using Joe Torre's pre-Yankees record to do the same. Acta should be judged by the moves he makes, not by the quality of the teams he has been provided.


How was Joe Torre before he landed the managing job with the Yankees? He was a guy who one writer dubbed, "Clueless Joe." But, with the Yankees and an unlimted payroll, he reached the heights of success. A manager is only as good as his players.


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