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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:13 am 
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Mister Pittsburgh wrote:
rellimie wrote:
Where does it say its all on the players?


Come on man...

"For the second consecutive year, we put ourselves in an excellent position to meet our objective of winning our division but did not play nearly well enough during the last two months of the season to accomplish it," Coonelly said.

Who plays?


I was being facetious. I'm okay with that statement though, I put 90% of this on the players.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:04 am 
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Who signed our absolute worst starting 8 player & who continually jots his name in the starting lineup?


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:28 am 
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Mister Pittsburgh wrote:
Who signed our absolute worst starting 8 player & who continually jots his name in the starting lineup?


It's been almost an exact 50/50 split in the 2nd half. The only reason for that is because during this slide, McKenry has played more than Rod.

Rod plays when AJ and Wandy pitch. No way around that.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:18 am 
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I would have liked to see a change, but I'm OK with this. NH has improved his approach since his early mistakes. He has been better with trades and creative approaches recently. I don't doubt that the plan is correct, just do a little better executing. Now go and get Jon Lester on a deal like AJ's.

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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:40 am 
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Someone posted on Smizik's blog the winning percentages up to July 31 and after July 31 the last 5 years. I did not verify these numbers but they are striking:

2008 .463 .315
2009 .431 .304
2010 .350 .357
2011 .509 .321
2012 .573 .327


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:25 pm 
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So this second half represents the second-best we've had in the past 5 years.

If this were a board less civilized than JC described to me, I'd insert resigned profanity here, directed at nothing in particular.

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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:28 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
Someone posted on Smizik's blog the winning percentages up to July 31 and after July 31 the last 5 years. I did not verify these numbers but they are striking:

2008 .463 .315
2009 .431 .304
2010 .350 .357
2011 .509 .321
2012 .573 .327


2008-2010 could be explained by trading off the roster at 7/31. The last two years are a different animal. 2011 was pretty clearly a SP implosion. This year was more of a anything that could go wrong, did. When we pitch, we get shutout, when we hit the bullpen can't get anybody out.

It is hard to fault NH too much for what has happened in the last 2 months. He went and got a good SP (Wandy) to help there and he got a good bat (Gaby) to help there.

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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:42 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
Someone posted on Smizik's blog the winning percentages up to July 31 and after July 31 the last 5 years. I did not verify these numbers but they are striking:

2008 .463 .315
2009 .431 .304
2010 .350 .357
2011 .509 .321
2012 .573 .327


2008-2010 could be explained by trading off the roster at 7/31. The last two years are a different animal. 2011 was pretty clearly a SP implosion. This year was more of a anything that could go wrong, did. When we pitch, we get shutout, when we hit the bullpen can't get anybody out.

It is hard to fault NH too much for what has happened in the last 2 months. He went and got a good SP (Wandy) to help there and he got a good bat (Gaby) to help there.



On your last point, even if he didn't do as much as some people would have liked and made some big splashy move...you shouldn't need a big splashy move to stave off a complete collapse replete with sweeps or near-sweeps at the hands of the dastardly Cubs and Astros.

Complete rhyming with replete really takes away from a sentence I spent at least 2 minutes crafting.

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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:13 pm 
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I have little faith in this owner, and if he makes no changes with FC, NH, KS and the gang I will have even less faith. If you are running a team that hasn't gotten results in 20 years and you see the following:

GM of the last 5 years has acquired/drafted very little talent...certainly not enough to surround the good players he does have.

You have an assistant GM whose player development skills and how he operates has made their system a laughingstock. Opposing scouts, who have no agenda, are saying these things about his methods. And that isn't even counting the emails and other strange things he does.

Your scouts show no sign of being able to recognize talent(not counting Rene Gayo).

The current GM is responsible for all of this...and he keeps his job?

I realize NH has done some good things, and he deserves credit for those things. His plan is mostly solid. However, he has failed to do a good job of executing it. On top of all of that every time FC or NH speaks it comes out as an idiotic statement. I just don't see how you give all of these guys another year. This team is getting closer and they need people who can execute the plan far better than these guys have. Being better than Dave Littlefield doesn't make you a good GM...it just means you aren't a complete moron.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:27 pm 
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I meant to link this earlier, Tim does a nice job making his case for why NH should not be fired. I don't agree with all of it, but its worth a read.

http://www.piratesprospects.com/2012/09 ... mpany.html

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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:31 pm 
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My single biggest issue with this is for the past few weeks we have seen Bob Nutting say 'We won't evaluate things until the season is over'....then 8 games before the season is over they announce that all will stay on board. So when was the evaluation done? Is the only evaluation that matters Bob nutting looking at their haul of cash they made on the stadium being packed 3/4 of the season and thats it?

After the largest collapse after 105 games in MLB HISTORY, is there no deep self evaluation needed beyond, 'I got faith in these guys as baseball men'?


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:35 pm 
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Mister Pittsburgh wrote:
My single biggest issue with this is for the past few weeks we have seen Bob Nutting say 'We won't evaluate things until the season is over'....then 8 games before the season is over they announce that all will stay on board. So when was the evaluation done? Is the only evaluation that matters Bob nutting looking at their haul of cash they made on the stadium being packed 3/4 of the season and thats it?

After the largest collapse after 105 games in MLB HISTORY, is there no deep self evaluation needed beyond, 'I got faith in these guys as baseball men'?


Well Bob didn't say anything yet. This was all based on FC's comments. Maybe Bob will can them all since FC has tied himself with the rest.

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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:37 pm 
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Another take from someone who was following the NAVY SEAL stuff -

Comment From John
Are you on board with the Bucs (just announced) retaining of the front office for 2013?
12:35

Matt Klaassen:
That's tough for an outsider to evaluate for obvious reasons. The minor league instructionals thing seems insane, hopefully they get rid of that. Yeah, yeah, I know, I'm not inside, but seriously, hand-to-hand combat?

It really depends on how you see the team's young minor league talent. If it is progressing, then I think it's okay. If they aren't, the team doesn't have time to waste on changing direction. Yeah, the collapse is terrible, but did anyone realistically expect the Pirates to compete this year?

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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:41 pm 
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[quote="Barrys Dopers"]Another take from someone who was following the NAVY SEAL stuff -

Comment From John
Are you on board with the Bucs (just announced) retaining of the front office for 2013?
12:35

Matt Klaassen:
That's tough for an outsider to evaluate for obvious reasons. The minor league instructionals thing seems insane, hopefully they get rid of that. Yeah, yeah, I know, I'm not inside, but seriously, hand-to-hand combat?

It really depends on how you see the team's young minor league talent. If it is progressing, then I think it's okay. If they aren't, the team doesn't have time to waste on changing direction. Yeah, the collapse is terrible, but did anyone realistically expect the Pirates to compete this year?[/quote]

My single biggest issue with people thinking along those lines is this....Even if you didn't think we would win a world series or the division this year, or even a wild card, I am betting most thought we would be at or very, very near .500. Well we had a 16 game cushion at one point so even if they did 'come back down to their norm'....and play .500 ball, we still get a wildcard due to that cushion. I mean once they are 16 over, if they just play .500 ball down the stretch we end up with 90+wins! They didn't come back down to their level....they sunk so far below that level they are buried in that levels crap pile.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:48 pm 
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How many games during the hot streak in June and July did they win where it was pure luck? There were times they were playing crappy teams and squeaked a win out. This collapse is just the law of averages swinging back against them.

I predicted 75 wins this year back at the start of the season, but was hoping for .500.

This team is one more bat and one more pitcher away from going over the hump...

I think this offseason they need to make a few moves to get these guys. Hopefully the 16 games over .500 attracts a few guys who have blown off Pittsburgh as a possible destination in the past. (ex. Roy Oswalt)

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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:56 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
How many games during the hot streak in June and July did they win where it was pure luck? There were times they were playing crappy teams and squeaked a win out. This collapse is just the law of averages swinging back against them.

I predicted 75 wins this year back at the start of the season, but was hoping for .500.

This team is one more bat and one more pitcher away from going over the hump...

I think this offseason they need to make a few moves to get these guys. Hopefully the 16 games over .500 attracts a few guys who have blown off Pittsburgh as a possible destination in the past. (ex. Roy Oswalt)


Law of averages? Just karma huh? :roll: Sorry man, not buying it.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:05 pm 
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No I'm not buying that either. They have mostly looked terrible at all phases of the game. Messed up, bad news bears, totally lacking in fundamentals terrible, like you would expect the Houston Astros to look.

Last year was understandable; they were clearly lacking in talent late in the season. This year there's no excuse.

Yes I blame the players for choking beyond anyone's imagination, but I blame Hurdle and Huntington more.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:56 pm 
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Yea, enough with the law of averages crap.

We need one bat and one pitcher. Who? Huntington has shown no skill at acquiring major league talent through free agency. He is very "iffy" on trades, and never seems willing to trade in the offseason to acquire a solid player. Instead he signs Barajas type guys and wastes money. Players in our system? Cole and Taillon may be ready and I'm excited to see them, but who else? Not anyone that even looks remotely close to contributing to a major league roster. All the guys he always bragged about drafting they now say aren't major league starting material(Mercer, D'arnaud, etc). This guy has had 5 years and hasn't proven he has the skill to acquire talented players. Time to find someone who can...if your owner is really serious about winning.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:37 pm 
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As long as the organization accepts mediocrity it will continue to be mediocre. I dont want to hear anymore excuses. This team imploded. Its gonna be hard for me to get excited about this team next season no matter what our record is at any point in the season.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:33 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
I meant to link this earlier, Tim does a nice job making his case for why NH should not be fired. I don't agree with all of it, but its worth a read.

http://www.piratesprospects.com/2012/09 ... mpany.html

Good article. Thanks for the link.

I admit I was secretly hoping they'd fire Kyle Stark over his recent email kerfuffle and a gut sense that the Pirates are lousy at developing players. So it's helpful for me to read a more objective view.


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