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 Post subject: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:41 pm 
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The state of the Pirates is all on the players per Big Frank....total bullcrap but typical of the Pirates...

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/spo ... er-654973/


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:48 pm 
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Wow!

The collapse alone should merit changes.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:47 pm 
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If Nutting left this up to Coonelly then I'm not surprised. He is a complete buffoon.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:54 pm 
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This wasn't just fading by a few games down the stretch missing the wildcard by a game or two. This was possibly the biggest collapse after being 16 games over .500 after 105 games in the 100+ year history of pro baseball!


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:18 pm 
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I am OK with the NH and CH decisions. But, I really thought we should shake things up down the line from there.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:04 pm 
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Where does it say its all on the players?


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:37 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
Where does it say its all on the players?


Come on man...

"For the second consecutive year, we put ourselves in an excellent position to meet our objective of winning our division but did not play nearly well enough during the last two months of the season to accomplish it," Coonelly said.

Who plays?


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:52 pm 
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Mister Pittsburgh wrote:
rellimie wrote:
Where does it say its all on the players?


Come on man...

"For the second consecutive year, we put ourselves in an excellent position to meet our objective of winning our division but did not play nearly well enough during the last two months of the season to accomplish it," Coonelly said.

Who plays?


Obviously this.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:54 pm 
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I never really thought this team could win the division anyways. Wild card more or less but then the collapse happened. The schedule wasn't brutal to finish up, the team just faded away. Now, management is going to put a team together based around the budget they have. Think back to free agency, there wasn't much to pick from. The pirate organization needs to continue to try and field more talent around the youngsters. Unfortunately low market teams have to build from within. This is where developing talent is key. I'm not sure if the right people are in place within the system to get this accomplished. Will know by next year. If any sort of success regresses we're in trouble.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:47 pm 
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To me the issue of who should go and who should stay is a question of the person’s ceiling. In any organization the rise and fall of an organization is largely on the shoulders of its leaders. When it comes to Frank, Neil, Greg, and/or Clint, the question that needs asked is, “does this person have more ceiling than what we are currently experiencing?” In plain words can Frank lead this organization to the next level? If yes, he should stay. If the answer is no, he should go. Can Neil build a better team that can exceed the current team and build a pipeline of future talent that will help Pittsburgh be competitive for years to come? Can Clint manage the team at a higher level than he displayed this year or is this his ceiling? These questions need asked of every senior leader in the organization. If it is determined that this is their ceiling then they should be let go as soon as the season is over. If they have more to give, they should be retained for another year.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:13 am 
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Mister Pittsburgh wrote:
rellimie wrote:
Where does it say its all on the players?


Come on man...

"For the second consecutive year, we put ourselves in an excellent position to meet our objective of winning our division but did not play nearly well enough during the last two months of the season to accomplish it," Coonelly said.

Who plays?


I was being facetious. I'm okay with that statement though, I put 90% of this on the players.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:04 am 
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Who signed our absolute worst starting 8 player & who continually jots his name in the starting lineup?


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:28 am 
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Mister Pittsburgh wrote:
Who signed our absolute worst starting 8 player & who continually jots his name in the starting lineup?


It's been almost an exact 50/50 split in the 2nd half. The only reason for that is because during this slide, McKenry has played more than Rod.

Rod plays when AJ and Wandy pitch. No way around that.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:18 am 
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I would have liked to see a change, but I'm OK with this. NH has improved his approach since his early mistakes. He has been better with trades and creative approaches recently. I don't doubt that the plan is correct, just do a little better executing. Now go and get Jon Lester on a deal like AJ's.

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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:40 am 
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Someone posted on Smizik's blog the winning percentages up to July 31 and after July 31 the last 5 years. I did not verify these numbers but they are striking:

2008 .463 .315
2009 .431 .304
2010 .350 .357
2011 .509 .321
2012 .573 .327


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:25 pm 
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So this second half represents the second-best we've had in the past 5 years.

If this were a board less civilized than JC described to me, I'd insert resigned profanity here, directed at nothing in particular.

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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:28 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
Someone posted on Smizik's blog the winning percentages up to July 31 and after July 31 the last 5 years. I did not verify these numbers but they are striking:

2008 .463 .315
2009 .431 .304
2010 .350 .357
2011 .509 .321
2012 .573 .327


2008-2010 could be explained by trading off the roster at 7/31. The last two years are a different animal. 2011 was pretty clearly a SP implosion. This year was more of a anything that could go wrong, did. When we pitch, we get shutout, when we hit the bullpen can't get anybody out.

It is hard to fault NH too much for what has happened in the last 2 months. He went and got a good SP (Wandy) to help there and he got a good bat (Gaby) to help there.

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Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:42 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
Someone posted on Smizik's blog the winning percentages up to July 31 and after July 31 the last 5 years. I did not verify these numbers but they are striking:

2008 .463 .315
2009 .431 .304
2010 .350 .357
2011 .509 .321
2012 .573 .327


2008-2010 could be explained by trading off the roster at 7/31. The last two years are a different animal. 2011 was pretty clearly a SP implosion. This year was more of a anything that could go wrong, did. When we pitch, we get shutout, when we hit the bullpen can't get anybody out.

It is hard to fault NH too much for what has happened in the last 2 months. He went and got a good SP (Wandy) to help there and he got a good bat (Gaby) to help there.



On your last point, even if he didn't do as much as some people would have liked and made some big splashy move...you shouldn't need a big splashy move to stave off a complete collapse replete with sweeps or near-sweeps at the hands of the dastardly Cubs and Astros.

Complete rhyming with replete really takes away from a sentence I spent at least 2 minutes crafting.

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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:13 pm 
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I have little faith in this owner, and if he makes no changes with FC, NH, KS and the gang I will have even less faith. If you are running a team that hasn't gotten results in 20 years and you see the following:

GM of the last 5 years has acquired/drafted very little talent...certainly not enough to surround the good players he does have.

You have an assistant GM whose player development skills and how he operates has made their system a laughingstock. Opposing scouts, who have no agenda, are saying these things about his methods. And that isn't even counting the emails and other strange things he does.

Your scouts show no sign of being able to recognize talent(not counting Rene Gayo).

The current GM is responsible for all of this...and he keeps his job?

I realize NH has done some good things, and he deserves credit for those things. His plan is mostly solid. However, he has failed to do a good job of executing it. On top of all of that every time FC or NH speaks it comes out as an idiotic statement. I just don't see how you give all of these guys another year. This team is getting closer and they need people who can execute the plan far better than these guys have. Being better than Dave Littlefield doesn't make you a good GM...it just means you aren't a complete moron.


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 Post subject: Re: Management will remain intact....it's all on the players
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:27 pm 
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I meant to link this earlier, Tim does a nice job making his case for why NH should not be fired. I don't agree with all of it, but its worth a read.

http://www.piratesprospects.com/2012/09 ... mpany.html

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