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 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:42 am 
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MoTownWV wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/stark_jayson/id/8420733/pittsburgh-pirates-trying-avoid-wrong-kind-history-mlb

When you're on pace for the worst collapse in the 150-year history of organized baseball, some people should probably be fired. Especially when it comes a year after the worst record a team ever posted after being in first place in late July.



I would start by firing whomever watched Wandy pitch for Houston and said "he could be a difference maker for our rotation."

I honestly believe inserting him in the rotation was the beginning of the end.


I don't think Wandy's 3.71 ERA in 11 games is the problem. I'd wager JMac's collapse and 3/5 of the rotation (Bedard/Karstens) falling apart probably played a bigger role.

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 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:41 pm 
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Yep.

Wandy hasn't been stellar, but he hasn't been awful either.

J Mac has been horrid in the 2nd half.


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 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:17 pm 
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This team somehow keeps setting marks for historical ineptitude. We are again failing in a way that has never been done before, and continue to be a national laughingstock.

Smizik posted a Huntington must go blog entry today. Huntington is on pace to average 67 wins in his 5 years. The Pirates averaged 72 wins in the 5 years prior to his arrival.

7 errors in one night. Milwaukee goes 7 for 7 in steals in the same game. Did you see last night where a guy stole a base when the Pirates turned their backs to the baserunner and ignored him? This is little league stuff. I have never seen that before.

Year 5 is when your plan should really start to come to fruition. And we can only manage one win out of four.

If they don't fire him, I am going to be pissed.


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 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:55 pm 
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I don't really care about the 72 v. 67 number...I'd rather have a team that has actual talent (like this one) than a middling team going nowhere and managing to win 72 games a year.

But after this...I don't know. I thought this team had actual ability. They still do when I look at the lineups before each game. I don't get it. It's easier to fire the coach/GM/whatever than it is to fire all of the players and replace them. And if they fire NH and/or Hurdle simply to send a message and shake things up, I don't disagree with it in theory.

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 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:48 pm 
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It's not about sending a message or shaking things up. It's about finding a better leader who can produce better results.

I agree that we need better players, but that's the GM's responsibility.


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 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:46 pm 
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We certainly have better players now than we did back then.

My gripe is that in 5 years NH hasn't acquired more good players. Lousy with free agency. Very mediocre(at best) with trades. Never seems willing to make offseason trades to try and acquire a more "big time" player. And his calling card is the money he spent on the draft. He has very little to show for it. A monkey could've picked Alvarez, Cole, and Taillon. Bell may pan out but his injury clouds that a bit. All of the other guys he threw extra money at to sign are going nowhere fast. Then this year instead of taking a hitter, which is badly needed, he played chicken with Boras on a pitcher and has nothing to show for it.

Another thing they are teaching them is patience, which is fine to a point. But you have a manager who I've heard twice now say he is trying to get them to swing the bat more and not wait on that perfect pitch. So its possible they are hearing two different messages, or at least two different versions of a message. Heck they have Marte taking pitch after pitch right down the middle. That isn't him...he needs to be a free swinger. Every player isn't a cookie cutout. Someone here recently complained how they always seem to mess with their hitters...in a bad way. I couldn't agree more. The whole system stinks right now, and it starts with Huntington.


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 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:23 pm 
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True. Free agents have been just about all busts.

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 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:38 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
rellimie wrote:
Charleston_Charlies wrote:
You may not (probably won't) agree with me, but I'm willing to give everyone one more season. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY thought we'd be in a playoff hunt this season when we discussed it 2 years ago. Everyone said 2014. So, in my mind, we're still 2 years away. Lots and lots of young players who were in Altoona only a season or two ago are on the playing field right now.

Call it hope, but I think we need to see this thing through next season. And I haven't given up on THIS season yet.

Go ahead and flame, but at my age I prefer to remain positive. Sat through too many 90+ win seasons in the 70's, only to see the damn Reds go to the World Series. I'm willing to wait this one out and see if we can pound it out the rest of this season, and surprise everyone next year!


I agree with this. NH took over a franchise in such bad shape it was basically an expansion team. In fact an expansion team would have been in better shape. It took the rays what, 8 years to become competitive?


Not true in the slightest. He had Bay, LaRoche, Freddy, Wilson, Nady, Bautista, McLouth, Doumit, a large group of highly touted young SP's, at least 4 marketable RP, McCutchen, Walker, Lincoln. Sure it wasn't a good team, but he had a lot of moveable parts to work with. It was largely NH's choice to sell low on almost everyone except Bay, Nady, and McLouth.


Are you serious about the players you just named? Let's evaluate what you just said:

Adam LaRoce - no 1st half production, usually a decent 2nd half. Hitting around .100 for a month before he was traded. You are right though, having a great year. Only had to wait until he was 32 years old to put it together for an entire season.

Jack Wilson - loved good'ol Jack as much as the next guy, gave us some great years. When NH took over he was 31 with declining fielding and he no longer could hit. You're right though, very movable.

Jose Bautista - Guy had every chance to do something. Never showed anything for all 78 teams he played for. You're right though, should have held out a few more years of 220 batting averages and no power so that when he turned 30 we could get 50 HR out of him. Of course if he stayed here then he may never have found those undetectable Canadian Roids.

Nate McLouth - Do I really need to go into the 1 year wonder of Nate or can I just move on? If anything you should give NH praise for moving him when he did.

Ryan Doumit - He left via FA, soooooo yeah. I don't miss a DH in the NL who plays half the games.

Freddy Sanchez - NH made a long term contract offer to Freddy, he rejected it. Also keep in mind he was 30. Since the news broke his trade value sank. We got Tim Alderson for him which at the time was a highly touted prospect.

Nady - Traded him for Tabata (Who is very young and still may turn out to be a solid leadoff guy) and Jeff Karstens who when healthy is our most consistant starting pitcher.

The only piece that we had that was an actual Star was Bay. For Bay we got
Bryan Morris - who i still like a lot
Andy LaRoche - Lots of potential, yes it didn't turn out but were weren't the only team who wanted him
Brandon Moss - Same deal, lots of potential, just have to wait until they are 30.
Craig Hansen - who had tons of talent but was diagnosed with a freak syndrom that ended his career (Simply, this was REALLY BAD LUCK).

Only had really 3 legit prospects in McCutchen and Walker. Not sure how you can consider Lincoln core piece....he is a career middle relief pitcher who NH moved when he was having a career year....it's all down hill for him after this (unless we waited until he was 30 of course :)

Who are these highly touted young SP's?

I don't consider RP a core for any team. RP is something you build with FA pieces....not something you draft and develop....except for maybe a closer.


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 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:23 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
Are you serious about the players you just named? Let's evaluate what you just said:

Adam LaRoce - no 1st half production, usually a decent 2nd half. Hitting around .100 for a month before he was traded. You are right though, having a great year. Only had to wait until he was 32 years old to put it together for an entire season.

Jack Wilson - loved good'ol Jack as much as the next guy, gave us some great years. When NH took over he was 31 with declining fielding and he no longer could hit. You're right though, very movable.

Jose Bautista - Guy had every chance to do something. Never showed anything for all 78 teams he played for. You're right though, should have held out a few more years of 220 batting averages and no power so that when he turned 30 we could get 50 HR out of him. Of course if he stayed here then he may never have found those undetectable Canadian Roids.

Nate McLouth - Do I really need to go into the 1 year wonder of Nate or can I just move on? If anything you should give NH praise for moving him when he did.

Ryan Doumit - He left via FA, soooooo yeah. I don't miss a DH in the NL who plays half the games.

Freddy Sanchez - NH made a long term contract offer to Freddy, he rejected it. Also keep in mind he was 30. Since the news broke his trade value sank. We got Tim Alderson for him which at the time was a highly touted prospect.

Nady - Traded him for Tabata (Who is very young and still may turn out to be a solid leadoff guy) and Jeff Karstens who when healthy is our most consistant starting pitcher.

The only piece that we had that was an actual Star was Bay. For Bay we got
Bryan Morris - who i still like a lot
Andy LaRoche - Lots of potential, yes it didn't turn out but were weren't the only team who wanted him
Brandon Moss - Same deal, lots of potential, just have to wait until they are 30.
Craig Hansen - who had tons of talent but was diagnosed with a freak syndrom that ended his career (Simply, this was REALLY BAD LUCK).

Only had really 3 legit prospects in McCutchen and Walker. Not sure how you can consider Lincoln core piece....he is a career middle relief pitcher who NH moved when he was having a career year....it's all down hill for him after this (unless we waited until he was 30 of course :)

Who are these highly touted young SP's?

I don't consider RP a core for any team. RP is something you build with FA pieces....not something you draft and develop....except for maybe a closer.

Your analysis becomes a joke when you try to defend the Bay trade. Even NH himself has said he made a mistake with that deal.


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 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:56 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
rellimie wrote:
Are you serious about the players you just named? Let's evaluate what you just said:

Adam LaRoce - no 1st half production, usually a decent 2nd half. Hitting around .100 for a month before he was traded. You are right though, having a great year. Only had to wait until he was 32 years old to put it together for an entire season.

Jack Wilson - loved good'ol Jack as much as the next guy, gave us some great years. When NH took over he was 31 with declining fielding and he no longer could hit. You're right though, very movable.

Jose Bautista - Guy had every chance to do something. Never showed anything for all 78 teams he played for. You're right though, should have held out a few more years of 220 batting averages and no power so that when he turned 30 we could get 50 HR out of him. Of course if he stayed here then he may never have found those undetectable Canadian Roids.

Nate McLouth - Do I really need to go into the 1 year wonder of Nate or can I just move on? If anything you should give NH praise for moving him when he did.

Ryan Doumit - He left via FA, soooooo yeah. I don't miss a DH in the NL who plays half the games.

Freddy Sanchez - NH made a long term contract offer to Freddy, he rejected it. Also keep in mind he was 30. Since the news broke his trade value sank. We got Tim Alderson for him which at the time was a highly touted prospect.

Nady - Traded him for Tabata (Who is very young and still may turn out to be a solid leadoff guy) and Jeff Karstens who when healthy is our most consistant starting pitcher.

The only piece that we had that was an actual Star was Bay. For Bay we got
Bryan Morris - who i still like a lot
Andy LaRoche - Lots of potential, yes it didn't turn out but were weren't the only team who wanted him
Brandon Moss - Same deal, lots of potential, just have to wait until they are 30.
Craig Hansen - who had tons of talent but was diagnosed with a freak syndrom that ended his career (Simply, this was REALLY BAD LUCK).

Only had really 3 legit prospects in McCutchen and Walker. Not sure how you can consider Lincoln core piece....he is a career middle relief pitcher who NH moved when he was having a career year....it's all down hill for him after this (unless we waited until he was 30 of course :)

Who are these highly touted young SP's?

I don't consider RP a core for any team. RP is something you build with FA pieces....not something you draft and develop....except for maybe a closer.

Your analysis becomes a joke when you try to defend the Bay trade. Even NH himself has said he made a mistake with that deal.


I'm not saying he didn't make a mistake. What I'm saying is that it was the only piece really worth anything and even the best GM's make mistakes.

I'm still waiting for that list of highly touted starting pitchers.


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 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:18 am 
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billy bean!


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 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:30 am 
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rellimie wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
rellimie wrote:

I agree with this. NH took over a franchise in such bad shape it was basically an expansion team. In fact an expansion team would have been in better shape. It took the rays what, 8 years to become competitive?


Not true in the slightest. He had Bay, LaRoche, Freddy, Wilson, Nady, Bautista, McLouth, Doumit, a large group of highly touted young SP's, at least 4 marketable RP, McCutchen, Walker, Lincoln. Sure it wasn't a good team, but he had a lot of moveable parts to work with. It was largely NH's choice to sell low on almost everyone except Bay, Nady, and McLouth.



Are you serious about the players you just named? Let's evaluate what you just said:

Adam LaRoce - no 1st half production, usually a decent 2nd half. Hitting around .100 for a month before he was traded. You are right though, having a great year. Only had to wait until he was 32 years old to put it together for an entire season.

Jack Wilson - loved good'ol Jack as much as the next guy, gave us some great years. When NH took over he was 31 with declining fielding and he no longer could hit. You're right though, very movable.

Jose Bautista - Guy had every chance to do something. Never showed anything for all 78 teams he played for. You're right though, should have held out a few more years of 220 batting averages and no power so that when he turned 30 we could get 50 HR out of him. Of course if he stayed here then he may never have found those undetectable Canadian Roids.

Nate McLouth - Do I really need to go into the 1 year wonder of Nate or can I just move on? If anything you should give NH praise for moving him when he did.

Ryan Doumit - He left via FA, soooooo yeah. I don't miss a DH in the NL who plays half the games.

Freddy Sanchez - NH made a long term contract offer to Freddy, he rejected it. Also keep in mind he was 30. Since the news broke his trade value sank. We got Tim Alderson for him which at the time was a highly touted prospect.

Nady - Traded him for Tabata (Who is very young and still may turn out to be a solid leadoff guy) and Jeff Karstens who when healthy is our most consistant starting pitcher.


The only piece that we had that was an actual Star was Bay. For Bay we got
Bryan Morris - who i still like a lot
Andy LaRoche - Lots of potential, yes it didn't turn out but were weren't the only team who wanted him
Brandon Moss - Same deal, lots of potential, just have to wait until they are 30.
Craig Hansen - who had tons of talent but was diagnosed with a freak syndrom that ended his career (Simply, this was REALLY BAD LUCK).

Only had really 3 legit prospects in McCutchen and Walker. Not sure how you can consider Lincoln core piece....he is a career middle relief pitcher who NH moved when he was having a career year....it's all down hill for him after this (unless we waited until he was 30 of course :)

Who are these highly touted young SP's?

I don't consider RP a core for any team. RP is something you build with FA pieces....not something you draft and develop....except for maybe a closer.


That's one way to look at it if your head is in the sand. Here's another -

LaRoche - a steady .800+ ops 1b in his prime. NH could have dealt him when he was killing the ball in the 2nd half of , but chose to wait a few years until he had a really bad 1st half, he went on to kill it for Atlanta.

Wilson - we were offered Jair Jurrjens for him, in 2008 he was a top glove SS with an OK bat coming off a .791 ops season. NH decided to pass on the early offers and wait until he broke down to deal him.

Bautista - this is a great example of not getting much out of a guy's talent. He was not a bad player for us and NH dealt him for no reason other than to hand Andy LaRoche a starting job. Bautista could have easily been retained as a bench player like he was in Toronto. Who knows, maybe he never breaks out, but NH gave him away for nothing.

McLouth - Nate was an all-star gold glove CF in his prime with a cheap contract. This is one where NH actually dealt him when he was highly valued. Of course the trade has netted little so far, hopefully Locke or Gaby Sanchez (via Gorkys) will pay off.

Freddy - a 3 time all-star with a cheap option, very marketable, valuable enough to get a top 50 prospect for. Of course the top 50 prospect was already in decline.

Nady - once highly touted prospect that was having his best two year span, again NH dealt him at peak value, no complaint here.

Doumit - a .775 ops bat that switch hits, there is little doubt he had value to AL teams at various trade deadlines, instead he walked for nothing.

Bay - indefensible. Boston gave up nothing for Bay.

SP - Duke (34th), Maholm, and Gorzo were all ranked in BA's top 100 prospects shortly before NH arrived. Snell was not but had the best stuff of any of them. Young pitching commands a large trade value. Of course NH kept them all too long. He let Maholm, Duke walk for nothing, gave away Gorzo for Josh Harrison, and oversaw Snell collapse.

RP - Capps, Torres, Marte, Grabow we have seen young closer guys get traded for players like Jed Lowrie and Josh Reddick. NH let Capps walk for nothing. He dealt Torres and Grabow for nothing. Only Marte's value was utilized.

Prospects - McCutchen, Walker, Lincoln, and a few others. Lincoln turned out to be a RP, but he was a highly touted SP prospect, that has big value. Of course our best two players were here as well.

I'm not saying he inherited a good team, but to say he basically had an expansion team is laughable. He had a bunch a movable parts and if he had sold at high value he would have done much better. The primary mistake he made was waiting to see if DL's team would win before cleaning house.

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 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:18 pm 
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Another outside opinion not caught up in the emotion of the collapse-

"If it were your call would you give Neal Huntington another year or would you move on?
12:16

Dave Cameron:
I think he's done enough to deserve to keep his job."

Honestly, I've yet to find anyone outside of Pittsburgh calling for NH's job. Man, I'm still thinking move on, but as I said, I won't be outraged if NH is retained.

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 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:59 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
SP - Duke (34th), Maholm, and Gorzo were all ranked in BA's top 100 prospects shortly before NH arrived. Snell was not but had the best stuff of any of them. Young pitching commands a large trade value. Of course NH kept them all too long. He let Maholm, Duke walk for nothing, gave away Gorzo for Josh Harrison, and oversaw Snell collapse.

RP - Capps, Torres, Marte, Grabow we have seen young closer guys get traded for players like Jed Lowrie and Josh Reddick. NH let Capps walk for nothing. He dealt Torres and Grabow for nothing. Only Marte's value was utilized.


Duke and Gorzo?. The issue here is the Pirates tried to use these guys as top of the rotation guys when in reality they were 4th and 5th starters, MAYBE. Yes, highly touted in the pirates organization.....mostly because we had nothing else. Duke was a FA, not worth a contract. I'd rather have Josh Harrison then Gorzo, GREAT TRADE

You have to take BA's top 100 with a grain of salt when you get out side of the top 10 or 15.

Maholm was a decent 3rd or 4th starter...however at the trade deadline we were still in a playoff race, THATS why he wasn't traded. He wasn't worth the club option of 9+ million.

No one expected Matt Capps to fall apart in his contract year. So you wanted them to give a contract to a guy that just posted a 5+ ERA? Yes he put it back together for a time but I don't blame the FO for passing on Capps.

Torres was 36 when traded.

You can't compare trade markets now and trade markets 2 or 3 years ago......completely different environment. Some years RP is a hot commodity, some years it's not.


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 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:46 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
SP - Duke (34th), Maholm, and Gorzo were all ranked in BA's top 100 prospects shortly before NH arrived. Snell was not but had the best stuff of any of them. Young pitching commands a large trade value. Of course NH kept them all too long. He let Maholm, Duke walk for nothing, gave away Gorzo for Josh Harrison, and oversaw Snell collapse.

RP - Capps, Torres, Marte, Grabow we have seen young closer guys get traded for players like Jed Lowrie and Josh Reddick. NH let Capps walk for nothing. He dealt Torres and Grabow for nothing. Only Marte's value was utilized.


Duke and Gorzo?. The issue here is the Pirates tried to use these guys as top of the rotation guys when in reality they were 4th and 5th starters, MAYBE. Yes, highly touted in the pirates organization.....mostly because we had nothing else. Duke was a FA, not worth a contract. I'd rather have Josh Harrison then Gorzo, GREAT TRADE

You have to take BA's top 100 with a grain of salt when you get out side of the top 10 or 15.

Maholm was a decent 3rd or 4th starter...however at the trade deadline we were still in a playoff race, THATS why he wasn't traded. He wasn't worth the club option of 9+ million.

No one expected Matt Capps to fall apart in his contract year. So you wanted them to give a contract to a guy that just posted a 5+ ERA? Yes he put it back together for a time but I don't blame the FO for passing on Capps.

Torres was 36 when traded.

You can't compare trade markets now and trade markets 2 or 3 years ago......completely different environment. Some years RP is a hot commodity, some years it's not.


I think you are illustrating my point, NH could have traded many of these guys at high value knowing that they would be gone (or really weren't as good as perceived), but he chose to ride them into the ground.

Anyway, back on topic, NH largely appears to be acceptable as a GM because of his predecessor's failings regarding amateur player acquisition. NH did have quite a few pieces to work with regardless of how we analyze his moves after taking over.

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 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:46 pm 
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Nutting can gain some public trust/favor by firing some of the current management. It
will help him sell tickets next year.

One of the biggest problems I see with NH & Co. is the utter inability to do much with so many
extremely high draft picks. I know some will say that the picks were made under
the orders of Nutting to find someone that will sign cheap, if true that really should
come to light.

I think they have put too many of their eggs in trying to hit the proverbial home run
on all of these pitching prospects and hardly ever finding paydirt.

How about bringing in someone who can bring in some proven talent scouts? I'd say the current
scouts have had disappointing results.

Sidenote: How can fans still be writing about finishing above .500 with night after night of
sad play? Simply put: it ain't happening. This team has earned it's place in the current
Pirate run of historically losing baseball.


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