Proud fans of a 128-year old tradition

It is currently Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:49 am

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:16 pm 
Online
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:46 pm
Posts: 4806
Location: Washington, DC
http://espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/star ... istory-mlb

When you're on pace for the worst collapse in the 150-year history of organized baseball, some people should probably be fired. Especially when it comes a year after the worst record a team ever posted after being in first place in late July.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm
Posts: 3879
Location: Glenshaw, PA
J_C_Steel wrote:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/stark_jayson/id/8420733/pittsburgh-pirates-trying-avoid-wrong-kind-history-mlb

When you're on pace for the worst collapse in the 150-year history of organized baseball, some people should probably be fired. Especially when it comes a year after the worst record a team ever posted after being in first place in late July.


There is something about NH's smugness regarding the collapse part II that really irritates me. I have been on the fence for a while about this issue, but I now think its time to move on (forward, hopefully).

_________________
Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 2109
Location: Naples, FL
Barrys Dopers wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/stark_jayson/id/8420733/pittsburgh-pirates-trying-avoid-wrong-kind-history-mlb

When you're on pace for the worst collapse in the 150-year history of organized baseball, some people should probably be fired. Especially when it comes a year after the worst record a team ever posted after being in first place in late July.


There is something about NH's smugness regarding the collapse part II that really irritates me. I have been on the fence for a while about this issue, but I now think its time to move on (forward, hopefully).



That's exactly how I feel. Maybe if he would have called it the worst luck in the history of luck.

_________________
AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:26 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:27 am
Posts: 1346
Location: Eastern Shore
Quote:
We spent way too much time Monday morning studying this depressing topic. We found more than 500 teams through the years that were 16 games over .500 or more after 108 games. And you know what they all had in common?

Not one of them wound up with more losses than wins. Not one!

That about says it all...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:07 pm
Posts: 1560
Barrys Dopers wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/stark_jayson/id/8420733/pittsburgh-pirates-trying-avoid-wrong-kind-history-mlb

When you're on pace for the worst collapse in the 150-year history of organized baseball, some people should probably be fired. Especially when it comes a year after the worst record a team ever posted after being in first place in late July.


There is something about NH's smugness regarding the collapse part II that really irritates me. I have been on the fence for a while about this issue, but I now think its time to move on (forward, hopefully).



Same here.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:27 pm
Posts: 385
Location: Morgantown, WV, via Charleston, WV
You may not (probably won't) agree with me, but I'm willing to give everyone one more season. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY thought we'd be in a playoff hunt this season when we discussed it 2 years ago. Everyone said 2014. So, in my mind, we're still 2 years away. Lots and lots of young players who were in Altoona only a season or two ago are on the playing field right now.

Call it hope, but I think we need to see this thing through next season. And I haven't given up on THIS season yet.

Go ahead and flame, but at my age I prefer to remain positive. Sat through too many 90+ win seasons in the 70's, only to see the damn Reds go to the World Series. I'm willing to wait this one out and see if we can pound it out the rest of this season, and surprise everyone next year!


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:25 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 5:37 pm
Posts: 567
J_C_Steel wrote:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/stark_jayson/id/8420733/pittsburgh-pirates-trying-avoid-wrong-kind-history-mlb

When you're on pace for the worst collapse in the 150-year history of organized baseball, some people should probably be fired. Especially when it comes a year after the worst record a team ever posted after being in first place in late July.



I would start by firing whomever watched Wandy pitch for Houston and said "he could be a difference maker for our rotation."

I honestly believe inserting him in the rotation was the beginning of the end.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:39 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:22 pm
Posts: 14
1 week ago, I probably would have said that everyone deserves a pass. The season, after all, is still above expectations for me (though not by much anymore).

There are a couple of things that bug me about the NH regime:
1) Player development. I don't have any numbers to back this up, but I just get the sense that we're lousy at developing players. Yes, this is quite possibly confirmation bias (enter McCutchen as a counter-example). Yes, it might just be that due to the financial situation, we're more likely to lose players just as they're entering their prime. Yes, the losing culture might wear on players. But I can't shake the feeling that we don't get the best out of our players.

2) Preference for drafting pitching talent. I've heard that hitters project much more reliably than pitchers. If so, it seems to me that most top draft picks should be hitters. They'll more consistently turn into competent players. The pirates can't afford to whiff on draft picks. I'll be thrilled to eat crow on this if Taillon/Cole/Heridia turn out to be the next Maddox/Glavine/Smoltz.

3) Kyle Stark. The only thing I know about this guy is the email he sent out, and so for all I know he's a great guy and a wonderful assistant GM. But I can't help shake the feeling that only a clown would write what he wrote. And clowns don't make great assistant GMs.

Just hunches. But at this point I'd wouldn't cry if Huntington were let go.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:09 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:42 pm
Posts: 861
Charleston_Charlies wrote:
You may not (probably won't) agree with me, but I'm willing to give everyone one more season. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY thought we'd be in a playoff hunt this season when we discussed it 2 years ago. Everyone said 2014. So, in my mind, we're still 2 years away. Lots and lots of young players who were in Altoona only a season or two ago are on the playing field right now.

Call it hope, but I think we need to see this thing through next season. And I haven't given up on THIS season yet.

Go ahead and flame, but at my age I prefer to remain positive. Sat through too many 90+ win seasons in the 70's, only to see the damn Reds go to the World Series. I'm willing to wait this one out and see if we can pound it out the rest of this season, and surprise everyone next year!


I agree with this. NH took over a franchise in such bad shape it was basically an expansion team. In fact an expansion team would have been in better shape. It took the rays what, 8 years to become competitive?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:41 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm
Posts: 3879
Location: Glenshaw, PA
rellimie wrote:
Charleston_Charlies wrote:
You may not (probably won't) agree with me, but I'm willing to give everyone one more season. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY thought we'd be in a playoff hunt this season when we discussed it 2 years ago. Everyone said 2014. So, in my mind, we're still 2 years away. Lots and lots of young players who were in Altoona only a season or two ago are on the playing field right now.

Call it hope, but I think we need to see this thing through next season. And I haven't given up on THIS season yet.

Go ahead and flame, but at my age I prefer to remain positive. Sat through too many 90+ win seasons in the 70's, only to see the damn Reds go to the World Series. I'm willing to wait this one out and see if we can pound it out the rest of this season, and surprise everyone next year!


I agree with this. NH took over a franchise in such bad shape it was basically an expansion team. In fact an expansion team would have been in better shape. It took the rays what, 8 years to become competitive?


Not true in the slightest. He had Bay, LaRoche, Freddy, Wilson, Nady, Bautista, McLouth, Doumit, a large group of highly touted young SP's, at least 4 marketable RP, McCutchen, Walker, Lincoln. Sure it wasn't a good team, but he had a lot of moveable parts to work with. It was largely NH's choice to sell low on almost everyone except Bay, Nady, and McLouth.

_________________
Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:42 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm
Posts: 3879
Location: Glenshaw, PA
MoTownWV wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/stark_jayson/id/8420733/pittsburgh-pirates-trying-avoid-wrong-kind-history-mlb

When you're on pace for the worst collapse in the 150-year history of organized baseball, some people should probably be fired. Especially when it comes a year after the worst record a team ever posted after being in first place in late July.



I would start by firing whomever watched Wandy pitch for Houston and said "he could be a difference maker for our rotation."

I honestly believe inserting him in the rotation was the beginning of the end.


I don't think Wandy's 3.71 ERA in 11 games is the problem. I'd wager JMac's collapse and 3/5 of the rotation (Bedard/Karstens) falling apart probably played a bigger role.

_________________
Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:07 pm
Posts: 1560
Yep.

Wandy hasn't been stellar, but he hasn't been awful either.

J Mac has been horrid in the 2nd half.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:17 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:46 am
Posts: 3501
Location: Economy, PA
This team somehow keeps setting marks for historical ineptitude. We are again failing in a way that has never been done before, and continue to be a national laughingstock.

Smizik posted a Huntington must go blog entry today. Huntington is on pace to average 67 wins in his 5 years. The Pirates averaged 72 wins in the 5 years prior to his arrival.

7 errors in one night. Milwaukee goes 7 for 7 in steals in the same game. Did you see last night where a guy stole a base when the Pirates turned their backs to the baserunner and ignored him? This is little league stuff. I have never seen that before.

Year 5 is when your plan should really start to come to fruition. And we can only manage one win out of four.

If they don't fire him, I am going to be pissed.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 2109
Location: Naples, FL
I don't really care about the 72 v. 67 number...I'd rather have a team that has actual talent (like this one) than a middling team going nowhere and managing to win 72 games a year.

But after this...I don't know. I thought this team had actual ability. They still do when I look at the lineups before each game. I don't get it. It's easier to fire the coach/GM/whatever than it is to fire all of the players and replace them. And if they fire NH and/or Hurdle simply to send a message and shake things up, I don't disagree with it in theory.

_________________
AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:48 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:46 am
Posts: 3501
Location: Economy, PA
It's not about sending a message or shaking things up. It's about finding a better leader who can produce better results.

I agree that we need better players, but that's the GM's responsibility.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:10 pm
Posts: 2070
We certainly have better players now than we did back then.

My gripe is that in 5 years NH hasn't acquired more good players. Lousy with free agency. Very mediocre(at best) with trades. Never seems willing to make offseason trades to try and acquire a more "big time" player. And his calling card is the money he spent on the draft. He has very little to show for it. A monkey could've picked Alvarez, Cole, and Taillon. Bell may pan out but his injury clouds that a bit. All of the other guys he threw extra money at to sign are going nowhere fast. Then this year instead of taking a hitter, which is badly needed, he played chicken with Boras on a pitcher and has nothing to show for it.

Another thing they are teaching them is patience, which is fine to a point. But you have a manager who I've heard twice now say he is trying to get them to swing the bat more and not wait on that perfect pitch. So its possible they are hearing two different messages, or at least two different versions of a message. Heck they have Marte taking pitch after pitch right down the middle. That isn't him...he needs to be a free swinger. Every player isn't a cookie cutout. Someone here recently complained how they always seem to mess with their hitters...in a bad way. I couldn't agree more. The whole system stinks right now, and it starts with Huntington.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 2109
Location: Naples, FL
True. Free agents have been just about all busts.

_________________
AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:38 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:42 pm
Posts: 861
Barrys Dopers wrote:
rellimie wrote:
Charleston_Charlies wrote:
You may not (probably won't) agree with me, but I'm willing to give everyone one more season. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY thought we'd be in a playoff hunt this season when we discussed it 2 years ago. Everyone said 2014. So, in my mind, we're still 2 years away. Lots and lots of young players who were in Altoona only a season or two ago are on the playing field right now.

Call it hope, but I think we need to see this thing through next season. And I haven't given up on THIS season yet.

Go ahead and flame, but at my age I prefer to remain positive. Sat through too many 90+ win seasons in the 70's, only to see the damn Reds go to the World Series. I'm willing to wait this one out and see if we can pound it out the rest of this season, and surprise everyone next year!


I agree with this. NH took over a franchise in such bad shape it was basically an expansion team. In fact an expansion team would have been in better shape. It took the rays what, 8 years to become competitive?


Not true in the slightest. He had Bay, LaRoche, Freddy, Wilson, Nady, Bautista, McLouth, Doumit, a large group of highly touted young SP's, at least 4 marketable RP, McCutchen, Walker, Lincoln. Sure it wasn't a good team, but he had a lot of moveable parts to work with. It was largely NH's choice to sell low on almost everyone except Bay, Nady, and McLouth.


Are you serious about the players you just named? Let's evaluate what you just said:

Adam LaRoce - no 1st half production, usually a decent 2nd half. Hitting around .100 for a month before he was traded. You are right though, having a great year. Only had to wait until he was 32 years old to put it together for an entire season.

Jack Wilson - loved good'ol Jack as much as the next guy, gave us some great years. When NH took over he was 31 with declining fielding and he no longer could hit. You're right though, very movable.

Jose Bautista - Guy had every chance to do something. Never showed anything for all 78 teams he played for. You're right though, should have held out a few more years of 220 batting averages and no power so that when he turned 30 we could get 50 HR out of him. Of course if he stayed here then he may never have found those undetectable Canadian Roids.

Nate McLouth - Do I really need to go into the 1 year wonder of Nate or can I just move on? If anything you should give NH praise for moving him when he did.

Ryan Doumit - He left via FA, soooooo yeah. I don't miss a DH in the NL who plays half the games.

Freddy Sanchez - NH made a long term contract offer to Freddy, he rejected it. Also keep in mind he was 30. Since the news broke his trade value sank. We got Tim Alderson for him which at the time was a highly touted prospect.

Nady - Traded him for Tabata (Who is very young and still may turn out to be a solid leadoff guy) and Jeff Karstens who when healthy is our most consistant starting pitcher.

The only piece that we had that was an actual Star was Bay. For Bay we got
Bryan Morris - who i still like a lot
Andy LaRoche - Lots of potential, yes it didn't turn out but were weren't the only team who wanted him
Brandon Moss - Same deal, lots of potential, just have to wait until they are 30.
Craig Hansen - who had tons of talent but was diagnosed with a freak syndrom that ended his career (Simply, this was REALLY BAD LUCK).

Only had really 3 legit prospects in McCutchen and Walker. Not sure how you can consider Lincoln core piece....he is a career middle relief pitcher who NH moved when he was having a career year....it's all down hill for him after this (unless we waited until he was 30 of course :)

Who are these highly touted young SP's?

I don't consider RP a core for any team. RP is something you build with FA pieces....not something you draft and develop....except for maybe a closer.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:10 pm
Posts: 2070
rellimie wrote:
Are you serious about the players you just named? Let's evaluate what you just said:

Adam LaRoce - no 1st half production, usually a decent 2nd half. Hitting around .100 for a month before he was traded. You are right though, having a great year. Only had to wait until he was 32 years old to put it together for an entire season.

Jack Wilson - loved good'ol Jack as much as the next guy, gave us some great years. When NH took over he was 31 with declining fielding and he no longer could hit. You're right though, very movable.

Jose Bautista - Guy had every chance to do something. Never showed anything for all 78 teams he played for. You're right though, should have held out a few more years of 220 batting averages and no power so that when he turned 30 we could get 50 HR out of him. Of course if he stayed here then he may never have found those undetectable Canadian Roids.

Nate McLouth - Do I really need to go into the 1 year wonder of Nate or can I just move on? If anything you should give NH praise for moving him when he did.

Ryan Doumit - He left via FA, soooooo yeah. I don't miss a DH in the NL who plays half the games.

Freddy Sanchez - NH made a long term contract offer to Freddy, he rejected it. Also keep in mind he was 30. Since the news broke his trade value sank. We got Tim Alderson for him which at the time was a highly touted prospect.

Nady - Traded him for Tabata (Who is very young and still may turn out to be a solid leadoff guy) and Jeff Karstens who when healthy is our most consistant starting pitcher.

The only piece that we had that was an actual Star was Bay. For Bay we got
Bryan Morris - who i still like a lot
Andy LaRoche - Lots of potential, yes it didn't turn out but were weren't the only team who wanted him
Brandon Moss - Same deal, lots of potential, just have to wait until they are 30.
Craig Hansen - who had tons of talent but was diagnosed with a freak syndrom that ended his career (Simply, this was REALLY BAD LUCK).

Only had really 3 legit prospects in McCutchen and Walker. Not sure how you can consider Lincoln core piece....he is a career middle relief pitcher who NH moved when he was having a career year....it's all down hill for him after this (unless we waited until he was 30 of course :)

Who are these highly touted young SP's?

I don't consider RP a core for any team. RP is something you build with FA pieces....not something you draft and develop....except for maybe a closer.

Your analysis becomes a joke when you try to defend the Bay trade. Even NH himself has said he made a mistake with that deal.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Why People Need To Be Fired...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:56 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:42 pm
Posts: 861
PirateParrot wrote:
rellimie wrote:
Are you serious about the players you just named? Let's evaluate what you just said:

Adam LaRoce - no 1st half production, usually a decent 2nd half. Hitting around .100 for a month before he was traded. You are right though, having a great year. Only had to wait until he was 32 years old to put it together for an entire season.

Jack Wilson - loved good'ol Jack as much as the next guy, gave us some great years. When NH took over he was 31 with declining fielding and he no longer could hit. You're right though, very movable.

Jose Bautista - Guy had every chance to do something. Never showed anything for all 78 teams he played for. You're right though, should have held out a few more years of 220 batting averages and no power so that when he turned 30 we could get 50 HR out of him. Of course if he stayed here then he may never have found those undetectable Canadian Roids.

Nate McLouth - Do I really need to go into the 1 year wonder of Nate or can I just move on? If anything you should give NH praise for moving him when he did.

Ryan Doumit - He left via FA, soooooo yeah. I don't miss a DH in the NL who plays half the games.

Freddy Sanchez - NH made a long term contract offer to Freddy, he rejected it. Also keep in mind he was 30. Since the news broke his trade value sank. We got Tim Alderson for him which at the time was a highly touted prospect.

Nady - Traded him for Tabata (Who is very young and still may turn out to be a solid leadoff guy) and Jeff Karstens who when healthy is our most consistant starting pitcher.

The only piece that we had that was an actual Star was Bay. For Bay we got
Bryan Morris - who i still like a lot
Andy LaRoche - Lots of potential, yes it didn't turn out but were weren't the only team who wanted him
Brandon Moss - Same deal, lots of potential, just have to wait until they are 30.
Craig Hansen - who had tons of talent but was diagnosed with a freak syndrom that ended his career (Simply, this was REALLY BAD LUCK).

Only had really 3 legit prospects in McCutchen and Walker. Not sure how you can consider Lincoln core piece....he is a career middle relief pitcher who NH moved when he was having a career year....it's all down hill for him after this (unless we waited until he was 30 of course :)

Who are these highly touted young SP's?

I don't consider RP a core for any team. RP is something you build with FA pieces....not something you draft and develop....except for maybe a closer.

Your analysis becomes a joke when you try to defend the Bay trade. Even NH himself has said he made a mistake with that deal.


I'm not saying he didn't make a mistake. What I'm saying is that it was the only piece really worth anything and even the best GM's make mistakes.

I'm still waiting for that list of highly touted starting pitchers.


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], J_C_Steel, StarlingArcher and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Design By Poker Bandits