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 Post subject: Re: Who should lose their job?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:12 am 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
rellimie wrote:
Last year's collapse and this year's collapse in my mind are completely different.

This year is just such a huge mystery. Some of it bad luck, some of it "focus", some of it is just who knows.


Yup.

Add some pitching (FA, trade or call-ups), drop the dead weight (Barajas for sure), maybe add a quality bat and the last 62 games of next season will probably be closer to the first 100 of the last two.


Barajas won't be back, that's almost a guarantee. Looking at the list of FA catchers though, aside from 2, I'm not sure who is really going to be that much better.

The quality bat is going to have to be a 1B or RF unless we sign Mike Napoli at C (I would like this at the right price but at 31 I don't want to see us spend a ton).

I like Gabby Sanchez as a bat off the bench and a defensive replacement at 1st.

Jones is a lock for either RF or 1B depending on where we can find a bat. Your going to think I'm nuts but I would love to get a guy like Michael Bourn. We need a leadoff hitter more than anything in this lineup. Bat Marte in the 2 spot.

Our bench though needs MAJOR upgrades. Our pinch hitting is horrible, might as well just let the pitchers keep batting.


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 Post subject: Re: Who should lose their job?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:18 am 
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rellimie wrote:
Barajas won't be back, that's almost a guarantee. Looking at the list of FA catchers though, aside from 2, I'm not sure who is really going to be that much better.

The quality bat is going to have to be a 1B or RF unless we sign Mike Napoli at C (I would like this at the right price but at 31 I don't want to see us spend a ton).


Agreed. C is a tough position to fill. Probably going to have to roll the dice with Tony Sanchez or make a desperate signing of the Barajas ilk like maybe a Geovony Soto type (he's arb eligible, not sure if he'll be out there, just an example).

Quote:
I like Gabby Sanchez as a bat off the bench and a defensive replacement at 1st.


Agreed.

rellimie wrote:
Jones is a lock for either RF or 1B depending on where we can find a bat. Your going to think I'm nuts but I would love to get a guy like Michael Bourn. We need a leadoff hitter more than anything in this lineup. Bat Marte in the 2 spot.


Not crazy at all.

I mean, sure, he's no spring chicken, but adding a 'sure thing' like Bourn would give the Bucs the option of trading Marte/Tabata/Snider/Jones for another quality arm or maybe in a package for a Headley type.

Besides, like you said, it's not like there's a myriad of C/SS options to choose from.

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 Post subject: Re: Who should lose their job?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:21 am 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
rellimie wrote:
Jones is a lock for either RF or 1B depending on where we can find a bat. Your going to think I'm nuts but I would love to get a guy like Michael Bourn. We need a leadoff hitter more than anything in this lineup. Bat Marte in the 2 spot.


Not crazy at all.

I mean, sure, he's no spring chicken, but adding a 'sure thing' like Bourn would give the Bucs the option of trading Marte/Tabata/Snider/Jones for another quality arm or maybe in a package for a Headley type.

Besides, like you said, it's not like there's a myriad of C/SS options to choose from.


Here is the list:

Shortstops
Jason Bartlett (33)
Yuniesky Betancourt (31)
Ronny Cedeno (30)
Stephen Drew (30) - $10MM mutual option with a $1.35MM buyout
Alex Gonzalez (35) - $4MM vesting option. Details here.
Cesar Izturis (33)
Jhonny Peralta (31) - $6MM club option with a $500K buyout
Marco Scutaro (37)
Omar Vizquel (46)
Jack Wilson (35)


Catchers
Rod Barajas (37) - $3.5MM club option, no buyout
Henry Blanco (41) - $1.24MM mutual option
Chris Iannetta (30) - $5MM club option with a $250K buyout; player can void
Gerald Laird (33)
Russell Martin (30)
Brian McCann (29) - $12MM club option with a $500K buyout
Jose Molina (37) - $1.5MM club option with a $300K buyout
Mike Napoli (31)
Wil Nieves (35)
Miguel Olivo (34) - $3MM club option with a $750K buyout
Ronny Paulino (32)
A.J. Pierzynski (36)
Humberto Quintero (33)
David Ross (36)
Carlos Ruiz (34) - $5MM club option with a $500K buyout
Brian Schneider (36)
Kelly Shoppach (33)
Chris Snyder (32) - $4MM mutual option for 2013 with a $500K buyout
Yorvit Torrealba (34)
Matt Treanor (37)


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 Post subject: Re: Who should lose their job?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:04 am 
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rellimie wrote:
fuzzy159 wrote:
Clint Barmes and Rod Barajas....



Not the cause of the collapse.

Not saying they help, but not the cause. This team was 16 over .500 in August with Barajas playing like he plays now and Barmes playing worse than he is playing now.

The cause of this collapse is simple....

McCutchen losing his clutch
Walker's injury
McDonald's collapse
Karsten's injury
The bullpen's collapse

I'm not saying NH shouldn't be put on probation for next year....BUT, he put together a team that was 16 over in August and acquired upgrades at the trade deadline without selling the farm. I don't think the GM should be crucified for a collapse in late August. If anything, that's coaching.


I don't even...

They have everything to do with this team failing. Did you expect McCutchen to bat at a historic rate all season? Our team came back to earth. We were 16 games above 500 with them doing bad but that doesn't mean they weren't a problem with the losses...

That is insane and idiotic to say Barmes and Barajas don't deserve the majority of the blame. They are by far the worst players on a losing team. If we had an all star catcher and a ss who wasn't horrendous in the batters box we would be in the wild card spot.


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 Post subject: Re: Who should lose their job?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:22 am 
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fuzzy159 wrote:
rellimie wrote:
fuzzy159 wrote:
Clint Barmes and Rod Barajas....



Not the cause of the collapse.

Not saying they help, but not the cause. This team was 16 over .500 in August with Barajas playing like he plays now and Barmes playing worse than he is playing now.

The cause of this collapse is simple....

McCutchen losing his clutch
Walker's injury
McDonald's collapse
Karsten's injury
The bullpen's collapse

I'm not saying NH shouldn't be put on probation for next year....BUT, he put together a team that was 16 over in August and acquired upgrades at the trade deadline without selling the farm. I don't think the GM should be crucified for a collapse in late August. If anything, that's coaching.


I don't even...

They have everything to do with this team failing. Did you expect McCutchen to bat at a historic rate all season? Our team came back to earth. We were 16 games above 500 with them doing bad but that doesn't mean they weren't a problem with the losses...

That is insane and idiotic to say Barmes and Barajas don't deserve the majority of the blame. They are by far the worst players on a losing team. If we had an all star catcher and a ss who wasn't horrendous in the batters box we would be in the wild card spot.


Correct. If we had an all star at every position we would be a good team. But it's the GM's fault that he didn't run out and sign all stars for those positions. A teams collapse is typically the fault of the 7th and 8th hitters one of which only plays half the games and the other who has had a 266/323/373/696 line since the all-star break.


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 Post subject: Re: Who should lose their job?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:39 am 
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Not that I want to go out of my way to defend Barmes but here are his lines during the "collapse" (August and September)

August 271/295/376/672
September 310/431/476/908

Ill take that out of my 7th or 8th hitter any day of the week.


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 Post subject: Re: Who should lose their job?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:08 am 
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Also I would expect our number 3 hitter to do a little better than a 693 OPS in August even when he is slumping.


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 Post subject: Re: Who should lose their job?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:01 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
These last 2 seasons are absolutely unacceptable! Someone has to be to blame, which means someone should lose their job. I think the Candidates are:
FC
NH
CH
And I think the clear cut choice for getting fired is NH. The guy is a fucking idiot, he signs complete turds every offseason, his drafts pretty much suck, other then the no-brainer studs he drafts when he gets the luxury of a top 3 pick in his drafts. Look at these other guys they drop all this money on after those top picks. They all are busts. The whole system is a mess none of the players in the minors or majors can do the fundamentals. His trades have been for the most part as shitty as his free agent signings. He traded Jason Bay for 4 complete wastes. McLouth was traded for nothing. He traded Jose Bautista for freaking Robinson Diaz. The only acceptable trades this guy has to date are the Nady and Damaso Marte deal to the Yankees, and the AJ Burnett trade. The others ones didn't help the ballclub thusfar (although I like the Snyder trade).
Fire this dumbass NH some of the moves he made are in Dave Littlefield territory.


This sounds like the rantings of someone completely lacking persepective.

How dare they win 72+ games the last two years while watching a key propsect turn into one of the game's 5 best players!!!!

I much prefered losing 100 with little hope!!!!

Its not hard to come up with sane, cogent criticisms of NH and crew, but this type of rant is exactly what gives yinzers a bad name.

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 Post subject: Re: Who should lose their job?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:40 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
Ryann wrote:
These last 2 seasons are absolutely unacceptable! Someone has to be to blame, which means someone should lose their job. I think the Candidates are:
FC
NH
CH
And I think the clear cut choice for getting fired is NH. The guy is a fucking idiot, he signs complete turds every offseason, his drafts pretty much suck, other then the no-brainer studs he drafts when he gets the luxury of a top 3 pick in his drafts. Look at these other guys they drop all this money on after those top picks. They all are busts. The whole system is a mess none of the players in the minors or majors can do the fundamentals. His trades have been for the most part as shitty as his free agent signings. He traded Jason Bay for 4 complete wastes. McLouth was traded for nothing. He traded Jose Bautista for freaking Robinson Diaz. The only acceptable trades this guy has to date are the Nady and Damaso Marte deal to the Yankees, and the AJ Burnett trade. The others ones didn't help the ballclub thusfar (although I like the Snyder trade).
Fire this dumbass NH some of the moves he made are in Dave Littlefield territory.


This sounds like the rantings of someone completely lacking persepective.

Yup, that's Ryann.

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 Post subject: Re: Who should lose their job?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:50 pm 
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For persepctive, this comment from fangraphs writer Alex Rimington that I elicted yesterday.

Alex Remington says:

September 20, 2012 at 5:18 pm

No matter what, I think this season has to be considered a success. Obviously, I don’t think Hurdle is the manager of the future. I think Huntington has been demonstrably more successful than Bonifay or Littlefield, and I don’t think that the decent showings in 2011 and 2012 were nearly as much of a mirage as the Kevin Young-Jason Kendall teams in 1997 and 1999.

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Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


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 Post subject: Re: Who should lose their job?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:13 pm 
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i think the whole bullpen except hannaran needs to go.


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 Post subject: Re: Who should lose their job?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:57 pm 
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Clevelandsux wrote:
i think the whole bullpen except hannaran needs to go.


Yeah those guys sucked for 5 months. :roll:

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Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


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 Post subject: Re: Who should lose their job?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:02 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
These last 2 seasons are absolutely unacceptable! Someone has to be to blame, which means someone should lose their job. I think the Candidates are:
FC
NH
CH
And I think the clear cut choice for getting fired is NH. The guy is a fucking idiot, he signs complete turds every offseason, his drafts pretty much suck, other then the no-brainer studs he drafts when he gets the luxury of a top 3 pick in his drafts. Look at these other guys they drop all this money on after those top picks. They all are busts. The whole system is a mess none of the players in the minors or majors can do the fundamentals. His trades have been for the most part as shitty as his free agent signings. He traded Jason Bay for 4 complete wastes. McLouth was traded for nothing. He traded Jose Bautista for freaking Robinson Diaz. The only acceptable trades this guy has to date are the Nady and Damaso Marte deal to the Yankees, and the AJ Burnett trade. The others ones didn't help the ballclub thusfar (although I like the Snyder trade).
Fire this dumbass NH some of the moves he made are in Dave Littlefield territory.


"Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter."


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