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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:37 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
This has been bantered on this board for a decade now. Now is the time for the organization to invest in the major league team. As much as we are all disappointed with the second half collapse and we still might not end up .500, we did improve this season record-wise and have some major pieces in place. There are definitely some holes and the Barmes signing was the worst since NH came aboard, but Nutting and Coonelly have to sit down and figure out how to make 2013 a legit contender. Let's face it. We got half of what we wanted - meaningful baseball in September. The next step is to make the playoffs. This is judgment year for Huntingdon. Get it done.


They currently will have the highest payroll in team history.

Next year they will look like this (* is estimated Arb award)-
Barmes 5.5
Cutch 4.7
Jones 3.5*
Walker 3.0*
Sanchez 2.5*
Tabata 1.2
Alvarez 0.7

Total for 7 bats is $21.1 million

Wandy $8.5
AJ $8.0
Karstens $4.0*
JMac $2.5*
Hanrahan $5.5*

Total $28.5 million for 5 pitchers.

So they are already at $50 million for 12 players. Lets say you want 3 vets and 10 young guys, add 485k times 10 for the young players, your total reaches $55 million.

So, start at $55 million, $2 million off the team record $57 million we are at now. Lets say Bob will allow a big jump to $65 million, you have $10 million to sign 1 to 3 players.

Folks, FA is not the answer. It can provide teh complimnetary pieces, but you can forget a big ticket.


I didn't say anything about free agency. Anyone who knows me knows I have said free agency is not the answer. What is the answer is to make a trade and possibly give up some prospects to help the major league team now. This has been brought up before as well in the past, but I argued it wasn't the time. Now is the time.

BB

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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:38 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
This has been bantered on this board for a decade now. Now is the time for the organization to invest in the major league team. As much as we are all disappointed with the second half collapse and we still might not end up .500, we did improve this season record-wise and have some major pieces in place. There are definitely some holes and the Barmes signing was the worst since NH came aboard, but Nutting and Coonelly have to sit down and figure out how to make 2013 a legit contender. Let's face it. We got half of what we wanted - meaningful baseball in September. The next step is to make the playoffs. This is judgment year for Huntingdon. Get it done.


They currently will have the highest payroll in team history.

Next year they will look like this (* is estimated Arb award)-
Barmes 5.5
Cutch 4.7
Jones 3.5*
Walker 3.0*
Sanchez 2.5*
Tabata 1.2
Alvarez 0.7

Total for 7 bats is $21.1 million

Wandy $8.5
AJ $8.0
Karstens $4.0*
JMac $2.5*
Hanrahan $5.5*

Total $28.5 million for 5 pitchers.

So they are already at $50 million for 12 players. Lets say you want 3 vets and 10 young guys, add 485k times 10 for the young players, your total reaches $55 million.

So, start at $55 million, $2 million off the team record $57 million we are at now. Lets say Bob will allow a big jump to $65 million, you have $10 million to sign 1 to 3 players.

Folks, FA is not the answer. It can provide teh complimnetary pieces, but you can forget a big ticket.


I agree. Might end up seeing us trade Jones + Hanrahan in this offseason. Free up some loot. Trade two guys coming off career years. Fill holes.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:41 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
They currently will have the highest payroll in team history.

Next year they will look like this (* is estimated Arb award)-
Barmes 5.5
Cutch 4.7
Jones 3.5*
Walker 3.0*
Sanchez 2.5*
Tabata 1.2
Alvarez 0.7

Total for 7 bats is $21.1 million

Wandy $8.5
AJ $8.0
Karstens $4.0*
JMac $2.5*
Hanrahan $5.5*

Total $28.5 million for 5 pitchers.

So they are already at $50 million for 12 players. Lets say you want 3 vets and 10 young guys, add 485k times 10 for the young players, your total reaches $55 million.

So, start at $55 million, $2 million off the team record $57 million we are at now. Lets say Bob will allow a big jump to $65 million, you have $10 million to sign 1 to 3 players.

Folks, FA is not the answer. It can provide teh complimnetary pieces, but you can forget a big ticket.

Milwaukee- 97 mill
Minnesota- 94
Atlanta- 83
Cincy- 82
Seattle- 81
Baltimore- 81
Cleveland- 78
Colorado- 78
Toronto- 75
Arizona- 74
Why can't the Pirates be somewhere in that neighborhood? Or at least closer? I'm not a proponent of bringing in a guy like Josh Hamilton. I know we couldn't afford Pujols/Fielder type players. But the GM(why I think we need a new one) nees to be able to find a way to either trade for or sign guys in that next tier, ala Aramis Ramirez. Instead we have spent years paying money to a bunch of washed up clowns. Again, I'm not suggesting we spend like the Yankees and Dodgers...but how about spending like other teams of our market size...oh, and spending wisely.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:57 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
They currently will have the highest payroll in team history.

Next year they will look like this (* is estimated Arb award)-
Barmes 5.5
Cutch 4.7
Jones 3.5*
Walker 3.0*
Sanchez 2.5*
Tabata 1.2
Alvarez 0.7

Total for 7 bats is $21.1 million

Wandy $8.5
AJ $8.0
Karstens $4.0*
JMac $2.5*
Hanrahan $5.5*

Total $28.5 million for 5 pitchers.

So they are already at $50 million for 12 players. Lets say you want 3 vets and 10 young guys, add 485k times 10 for the young players, your total reaches $55 million.

So, start at $55 million, $2 million off the team record $57 million we are at now. Lets say Bob will allow a big jump to $65 million, you have $10 million to sign 1 to 3 players.

Folks, FA is not the answer. It can provide teh complimnetary pieces, but you can forget a big ticket.

Milwaukee- 97 mill
Minnesota- 94
Atlanta- 83
Cincy- 82
Seattle- 81
Baltimore- 81
Cleveland- 78
Colorado- 78
Toronto- 75
Arizona- 74
Why can't the Pirates be somewhere in that neighborhood? Or at least closer? I'm not a proponent of bringing in a guy like Josh Hamilton. I know we couldn't afford Pujols/Fielder type players. But the GM(why I think we need a new one) nees to be able to find a way to either trade for or sign guys in that next tier, ala Aramis Ramirez. Instead we have spent years paying money to a bunch of washed up clowns. Again, I'm not suggesting we spend like the Yankees and Dodgers...but how about spending like other teams of our market size...oh, and spending wisely.


Bad TV deal, poor accessory revenues, worse attendence, low ticket prices, the list is long for why we can't spend 80 million. Losing for 20 years has a way of cutting revenue. We know for a fact that revenue was shockingly poor circa 2009 thanks to deadspin.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:58 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
This has been bantered on this board for a decade now. Now is the time for the organization to invest in the major league team. As much as we are all disappointed with the second half collapse and we still might not end up .500, we did improve this season record-wise and have some major pieces in place. There are definitely some holes and the Barmes signing was the worst since NH came aboard, but Nutting and Coonelly have to sit down and figure out how to make 2013 a legit contender. Let's face it. We got half of what we wanted - meaningful baseball in September. The next step is to make the playoffs. This is judgment year for Huntingdon. Get it done.


They currently will have the highest payroll in team history.

Next year they will look like this (* is estimated Arb award)-
Barmes 5.5
Cutch 4.7
Jones 3.5*
Walker 3.0*
Sanchez 2.5*
Tabata 1.2
Alvarez 0.7

Total for 7 bats is $21.1 million

Wandy $8.5
AJ $8.0
Karstens $4.0*
JMac $2.5*
Hanrahan $5.5*

Total $28.5 million for 5 pitchers.

So they are already at $50 million for 12 players. Lets say you want 3 vets and 10 young guys, add 485k times 10 for the young players, your total reaches $55 million.

So, start at $55 million, $2 million off the team record $57 million we are at now. Lets say Bob will allow a big jump to $65 million, you have $10 million to sign 1 to 3 players.

Folks, FA is not the answer. It can provide teh complimnetary pieces, but you can forget a big ticket.


I didn't say anything about free agency. Anyone who knows me knows I have said free agency is not the answer. What is the answer is to make a trade and possibly give up some prospects to help the major league team now. This has been brought up before as well in the past, but I argued it wasn't the time. Now is the time.

BB



I guess when I saw the word "invest" I thought you were talking money. At any rate, trading for more payroll will be limited too.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:10 am 
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I have made my case clear in 2 threads, sign a higher priced FA for 1 to 2 years rather than sign 3 has beens for the same amount you could spend on one guy...

Last year we could have signed willingham, kubel, cuddeyer, or aramis ramirez to a 2 year deal and it would have been less than than the annual salary combined between bedard, barajas and barmes.

Please Pirate front office, because I know you read these message boards :D , do not throw your money away on these older washed up players and actually take that money you would throw away on 3 players and actually sign someone that was good and still can be good, examples are listed above. And if players do not want to come here, than eat the money and save it up for next year.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:16 am 
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If I'm the Pirates, I'm looking into trading for Elvis Andrus or Danny Espinosa -- both would be long-term shortstop solutions. The former would cost quite a bit more, but he's an ideal lead-off hitter with a career OBP over .340. The latter plays second base for the Nationals, but can play shortstop at an above-average level. He's also a switch-hitter with some pop. Both players are available on the trade market because of the depth their teams have in the middle infield. Texas has Jurickson Profar coming up to take over at short, while the Nationals have Desmond at shortstop and options such as Lombardozzi and, eventually, Anthony Rendon at second base.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:27 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
If I'm the Pirates, I'm looking into trading for Elvis Andrus or Danny Espinosa -- both would be long-term shortstop solutions. The former would cost quite a bit more, but he's an ideal lead-off hitter with a career OBP over .340. The latter plays second base for the Nationals, but can play shortstop at an above-average level. He's also a switch-hitter with some pop. Both players are available on the trade market because of the depth their teams have in the middle infield. Texas has Jurickson Profar coming up to take over at short, while the Nationals have Desmond at shortstop and options such as Lombardozzi and, eventually, Anthony Rendon at second base.

I like it. Andrus may be a stretch, but he is by no means unattainable (unlike my dream of Tulo...), he would solve the lead-off problem and really help set the rest of the line-up (well, until you get to the 8 hole..... :roll: ).


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:48 am 
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I like your thinking but it would be a pipedream to land either of those two....The Nationals finally have made the playoffs for the first time since the 80's (dating back to them being the expos) and they will not trade their all star shortstop. The Rangers have tons of talent in the bigs and the minors but they will not give up andrus either, unless we give up 2-3 top tier prospects.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:15 pm 
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batterup wrote:
I have made my case clear in 2 threads, sign a higher priced FA for 1 to 2 years rather than sign 3 has beens for the same amount you could spend on one guy...

Last year we could have signed willingham, kubel, cuddeyer, or aramis ramirez to a 2 year deal and it would have been less than than the annual salary combined between bedard, barajas and barmes.


This just isn't true.

Cuddyer 3 years $31.5 million
Willingham 3 years $21 million
Kubel 2 years $16 million and a 3rd option year
AmRam 3 years $36 million

Every guy took a 3 year deal and we would have had to pay more to get any of them. As we saw last winter FA's turn down more money from us to sign elsewhere for less. I agree with your strategy, except for Cuddyer I would have liked any of the other 3 players, but it would have required a larger commitment than you are saying.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:23 pm 
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Kubel and Willingham are great buys at those numbers, Barrys. Either one of them would have helped the Pirates a lot this year.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:25 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Kubel and Willingham are great buys at those numbers, Barrys. Either one of them would have helped the Pirates a lot this year.


I know, I said that. I said that last winter.

I was just annoyed that Batterup makes it sound easier than it is. To get either guy you'd have to add a year or $2 or $3 million extra per season to get them to sign here. Cutch's breakout year may change the teams standing withe outside players. Guys may actually want to come here or at least not, not want to come here.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:31 pm 
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batterup wrote:
I like your thinking but it would be a pipedream to land either of those two....The Nationals finally have made the playoffs for the first time since the 80's (dating back to them being the expos) and they will not trade their all star shortstop. The Rangers have tons of talent in the bigs and the minors but they will not give up andrus either, unless we give up 2-3 top tier prospects.


Desmond's their All-Star shortstop, my friend. And you're right that the Nats won't be trading him.

But Espinosa is their second baseman who probably plays better shortstop. He's not an All-Star, but he's a switch-hitter with pop (.253/.317/.410 with 16 HRs this year) who can play good defense. With Lombardozzi and Rendon lurking, the Nats would be willing to entertain offers for Espinosa.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:35 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:

This just isn't true.

Cuddyer 3 years $31.5 million
Willingham 3 years $21 million
Kubel 2 years $16 million and a 3rd option year
AmRam 3 years $36 million

Every guy took a 3 year deal and we would have had to pay more to get any of them. As we saw last winter FA's turn down more money from us to sign elsewhere for less. I agree with your strategy, except for Cuddyer I would have liked any of the other 3 players, but it would have required a larger commitment than you are saying.



my apologies, your right Barry, I thought they were 2 year deals but I was wrong...But still, these are the type of players and deals I would rather see the buccos do, I hate the 5-6 year deals where you throw 90 million dollars to an aging star, but I also hate the 1 year 5 million dollar deals we give to washed up has beens too..


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:38 pm 
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batterup wrote:
But still, these are the type of players and deals I would rather see the buccos do, I hate the 5-6 year deals where you throw 90 million dollars to an aging star, but I also hate the 1 year 5 million dollar deals we give to washed up has beens too..


I'm also not a fan of 2-year, $10.5 million deals for players WHO CAN'T F*CKING HIT.

Just sayin'.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:40 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:

Desmond's their All-Star shortstop, my friend. And you're right that the Nats won't be trading him.

But Espinosa is their second baseman who probably plays better shortstop. He's not an All-Star, but he's a switch-hitter with pop (.253/.317/.410 with 16 HRs this year) who can play good defense. With Lombardozzi and Rendon lurking, the Nats would be willing to entertain offers for Espinosa.


I am looking like an idiot in this thread, I always get desmond and espinosa mixed up for some reason...your right espinosa would be an upgrade for sure if we could plug him in at SS, but I think management is going to keep barmes for next year


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:43 pm 
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I hear you J_C, and the worst part is, he is going to start hitting now and his final stats will be in the area of .235 avg 9 homers 50 rbi....those are numbers that look okay and it will give him another year..
5.5. million to him, 4.5 to barajas and 5 million to bedard....if only we could have gone after an actual good baseball player with that money


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:46 pm 
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batterup wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:

Desmond's their All-Star shortstop, my friend. And you're right that the Nats won't be trading him.

But Espinosa is their second baseman who probably plays better shortstop. He's not an All-Star, but he's a switch-hitter with pop (.253/.317/.410 with 16 HRs this year) who can play good defense. With Lombardozzi and Rendon lurking, the Nats would be willing to entertain offers for Espinosa.


I am looking like an idiot in this thread, I always get desmond and espinosa mixed up for some reason...your right espinosa would be an upgrade for sure if we could plug him in at SS, but I think management is going to keep barmes for next year

Management can keep Barmes, but that doesn't mean they have to start Barmes.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:47 pm 
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batterup wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:

Desmond's their All-Star shortstop, my friend. And you're right that the Nats won't be trading him.

But Espinosa is their second baseman who probably plays better shortstop. He's not an All-Star, but he's a switch-hitter with pop (.253/.317/.410 with 16 HRs this year) who can play good defense. With Lombardozzi and Rendon lurking, the Nats would be willing to entertain offers for Espinosa.


I am looking like an idiot in this thread, I always get desmond and espinosa mixed up for some reason...your right espinosa would be an upgrade for sure if we could plug him in at SS, but I think management is going to keep barmes for next year


Don't look now, but Barmes is now the best defensive SS in MLB by UZR (he's 6th by DRS) and his WAR is up to 1.8, good for 18th best in MLB. By WAR standards his $5.5 million contract is starting to look like a bargain. The season is 162 games afterall. He could end up posting the 2nd best WAR of his career.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:54 pm 
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for as bad as he was during april and may and I mean bad as in horrid, barmes has been pretty okay since....that being said I have seen enough of him and want something better, but he was an upgrade over cedeno, better clubhouse guy (i think) and he did not have the mental lapses of cedeno, offensively, they are about the same.


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