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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:23 pm 
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Kubel and Willingham are great buys at those numbers, Barrys. Either one of them would have helped the Pirates a lot this year.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:25 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Kubel and Willingham are great buys at those numbers, Barrys. Either one of them would have helped the Pirates a lot this year.


I know, I said that. I said that last winter.

I was just annoyed that Batterup makes it sound easier than it is. To get either guy you'd have to add a year or $2 or $3 million extra per season to get them to sign here. Cutch's breakout year may change the teams standing withe outside players. Guys may actually want to come here or at least not, not want to come here.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:31 pm 
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batterup wrote:
I like your thinking but it would be a pipedream to land either of those two....The Nationals finally have made the playoffs for the first time since the 80's (dating back to them being the expos) and they will not trade their all star shortstop. The Rangers have tons of talent in the bigs and the minors but they will not give up andrus either, unless we give up 2-3 top tier prospects.


Desmond's their All-Star shortstop, my friend. And you're right that the Nats won't be trading him.

But Espinosa is their second baseman who probably plays better shortstop. He's not an All-Star, but he's a switch-hitter with pop (.253/.317/.410 with 16 HRs this year) who can play good defense. With Lombardozzi and Rendon lurking, the Nats would be willing to entertain offers for Espinosa.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:35 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:

This just isn't true.

Cuddyer 3 years $31.5 million
Willingham 3 years $21 million
Kubel 2 years $16 million and a 3rd option year
AmRam 3 years $36 million

Every guy took a 3 year deal and we would have had to pay more to get any of them. As we saw last winter FA's turn down more money from us to sign elsewhere for less. I agree with your strategy, except for Cuddyer I would have liked any of the other 3 players, but it would have required a larger commitment than you are saying.



my apologies, your right Barry, I thought they were 2 year deals but I was wrong...But still, these are the type of players and deals I would rather see the buccos do, I hate the 5-6 year deals where you throw 90 million dollars to an aging star, but I also hate the 1 year 5 million dollar deals we give to washed up has beens too..


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:38 pm 
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batterup wrote:
But still, these are the type of players and deals I would rather see the buccos do, I hate the 5-6 year deals where you throw 90 million dollars to an aging star, but I also hate the 1 year 5 million dollar deals we give to washed up has beens too..


I'm also not a fan of 2-year, $10.5 million deals for players WHO CAN'T F*CKING HIT.

Just sayin'.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:40 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:

Desmond's their All-Star shortstop, my friend. And you're right that the Nats won't be trading him.

But Espinosa is their second baseman who probably plays better shortstop. He's not an All-Star, but he's a switch-hitter with pop (.253/.317/.410 with 16 HRs this year) who can play good defense. With Lombardozzi and Rendon lurking, the Nats would be willing to entertain offers for Espinosa.


I am looking like an idiot in this thread, I always get desmond and espinosa mixed up for some reason...your right espinosa would be an upgrade for sure if we could plug him in at SS, but I think management is going to keep barmes for next year


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:43 pm 
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I hear you J_C, and the worst part is, he is going to start hitting now and his final stats will be in the area of .235 avg 9 homers 50 rbi....those are numbers that look okay and it will give him another year..
5.5. million to him, 4.5 to barajas and 5 million to bedard....if only we could have gone after an actual good baseball player with that money


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:46 pm 
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batterup wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:

Desmond's their All-Star shortstop, my friend. And you're right that the Nats won't be trading him.

But Espinosa is their second baseman who probably plays better shortstop. He's not an All-Star, but he's a switch-hitter with pop (.253/.317/.410 with 16 HRs this year) who can play good defense. With Lombardozzi and Rendon lurking, the Nats would be willing to entertain offers for Espinosa.


I am looking like an idiot in this thread, I always get desmond and espinosa mixed up for some reason...your right espinosa would be an upgrade for sure if we could plug him in at SS, but I think management is going to keep barmes for next year

Management can keep Barmes, but that doesn't mean they have to start Barmes.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:47 pm 
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batterup wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:

Desmond's their All-Star shortstop, my friend. And you're right that the Nats won't be trading him.

But Espinosa is their second baseman who probably plays better shortstop. He's not an All-Star, but he's a switch-hitter with pop (.253/.317/.410 with 16 HRs this year) who can play good defense. With Lombardozzi and Rendon lurking, the Nats would be willing to entertain offers for Espinosa.


I am looking like an idiot in this thread, I always get desmond and espinosa mixed up for some reason...your right espinosa would be an upgrade for sure if we could plug him in at SS, but I think management is going to keep barmes for next year


Don't look now, but Barmes is now the best defensive SS in MLB by UZR (he's 6th by DRS) and his WAR is up to 1.8, good for 18th best in MLB. By WAR standards his $5.5 million contract is starting to look like a bargain. The season is 162 games afterall. He could end up posting the 2nd best WAR of his career.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:54 pm 
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for as bad as he was during april and may and I mean bad as in horrid, barmes has been pretty okay since....that being said I have seen enough of him and want something better, but he was an upgrade over cedeno, better clubhouse guy (i think) and he did not have the mental lapses of cedeno, offensively, they are about the same.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:05 pm 
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batterup wrote:
for as bad as he was during april and may and I mean bad as in horrid, barmes has been pretty okay since....that being said I have seen enough of him and want something better, but he was an upgrade over cedeno, better clubhouse guy (i think) and he did not have the mental lapses of cedeno, offensively, they are about the same.

That's been my take on Barmes, plus he's a decent to good defender. I can live with that, esp since he's apparently a good clubhouse guy. It's Barajas who really hurts. And if you guys are right in that he brings little to the table in terms of game management, well, that's unforgiveable for a guy hitting sub .200.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:09 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Management can keep Barmes, but that doesn't mean they have to start Barmes.


Bingo.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:10 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
Don't look now, but Barmes is now the best defensive SS in MLB by UZR (he's 6th by DRS) and his WAR is up to 1.8, good for 18th best in MLB. By WAR standards his $5.5 million contract is starting to look like a bargain. The season is 162 games afterall. He could end up posting the 2nd best WAR of his career.


I don't buy the defensive stats at all. He's so bad with the stick, I don't care if he's good defensively. What's his oWAR, Barrys?


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:16 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
Don't look now, but Barmes is now the best defensive SS in MLB by UZR (he's 6th by DRS) and his WAR is up to 1.8, good for 18th best in MLB. By WAR standards his $5.5 million contract is starting to look like a bargain. The season is 162 games afterall. He could end up posting the 2nd best WAR of his career.


I don't buy the defensive stats at all. He's so bad with the stick, I don't care if he's good defensively. What's his oWAR, Barrys?


Oh its bad (about 0.3), but his D has been outstanding and IMO it passes the sight test. He makes so many plays in the hole and makes DP's seem effortless. Its not like his D hasn't been high rated before, he basically was known as a glove 1st guy before we got him.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:26 pm 
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would you throw 12-14 million at kyle lohse, maybe a 3 years and 39 million...
I am just throwing it out there, because there is nothing I would really want in terms of free agency
maybe nick swisher can play first base IF we trade garett jones, and swisher would get a contract similar and I do not really look at him the same way i look at jason kubel from last year so I would be hesitent to give nick swisher that much money.
I would eat money this year if I am the Pirates, save it for 2014, we just about have all that we need, we can do what we do with our bullpen and spend very little to bring some arms in and maybe get a catcher for 3 million, but please do not spend 15 million on bums. save it for the next year.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:30 pm 
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I'd pay for hitting but I'd hate to take a big chance on pitching in FA.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:06 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
If I'm the Pirates, I'm looking into trading for Elvis Andrus or Danny Espinosa -- both would be long-term shortstop solutions. The former would cost quite a bit more, but he's an ideal lead-off hitter with a career OBP over .340. The latter plays second base for the Nationals, but can play shortstop at an above-average level. He's also a switch-hitter with some pop. Both players are available on the trade market because of the depth their teams have in the middle infield. Texas has Jurickson Profar coming up to take over at short, while the Nationals have Desmond at shortstop and options such as Lombardozzi and, eventually, Anthony Rendon at second base.


This is a capital idea. :idea:

As you state, both teams are flush with players at the M/C IF and might be more than willing to deal for the right price and both Elvis and Espinosa fit the bill in terms of Pirates needs.

Where do I sign this agenda???

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