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 Post subject: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:21 am 
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Let's say for the sake of argument that we finish at or around the .500 mark. Let's also say that Nutting decides to spend some money this off season, he got a taste of winning and now wants it more than ever.

We know our biggest needs:

SS
C
Leadoff Hitter (Maybe)

Another SP

Middle relief (Maybe)
Closer (Maybe)

I checked out the FA market for next year in the SS and C market and there isn't much to pick from. Also, the leadoff hitter position is going to have to come from the SS or RF if Travis Snider gets moved to the bench. Otherwise, Starling stays there for another year which I'm not completely against. Resigning Joel is always an option for closer.

Could make for an interesting offseason.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:33 am 
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They have 5 mil already invested in Clint Barmass, Clint H's lackey.....they are not going anywhere else with SS. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:45 am 
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i say just eat next year, it is what it is, in 2014 when we have no more $ tied up to barmes and another year of maturity for marte than I say we go all out and spend some more $ on a actual good baseball player (not 3 crappy players, one good player) for a 1-3 year contract.

By then I think Marte will be comfortable in the leadoff role, and im hoping that one of these SS's in our system will be good enough to play and I am HOPING a catcher from our system will also be suitable. I think G.I jones will be done by then and we will need a 1B...
So I am hoping for our minor league system to actually groom some guys and get them ready for the big leagues, i know that sounds crazy but some teams do it and they are actually teams who play in october,


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:07 am 
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Marte will never be a leadoff hitter. He is what he is, a guy who goes up to the plate looking to smash it to the wall every time.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:25 am 
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I don't see us signing another shortstop.

I think our biggest needs are catcher, starting pitcher, and another bat for OF/1B, in that order.

Marte looks raw to me. I think he has to earn his spot in the spring, otherwise it's more time in AAA.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:35 am 
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Ralphie wrote:
I don't see us signing another shortstop.

I think our biggest needs are catcher, starting pitcher, and another bat for OF/1B, in that order.

Marte looks raw to me. I think he has to earn his spot in the spring, otherwise it's more time in AAA.

Marte has nothing left to prove at AAA. Every player isn't a cookie cutout OBP machine. He brings tremendous energy, great defense, and game changing ability at the plate. Yes, he is definitely raw and has to become far more consistent(so do most of our guys) but I think he will grow into a fine major league player...sooner rather than later. Of course, hearing just how horrible our minor league instruction is(check out the one post in DK's blog from last night) it's possible that some of Marte's game would be more polished by now.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:53 am 
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You talk about the free agent spending, how about some of the people who turned down offers to come here (Edwin Jackson) or stated that Pittsburgh not call at all (Oswalt)?

Hopefully two seasons of being in the hunt for most of the season can lure a few bigger named players here.

Also, I think you deal Jones this off season. Sell high on him now and get something for him.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:56 am 
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I agree, even when jones was close to .300 this year I was hoping he would keep it up so that he could have a really nice statistical year, someone would have given up a nice piece of the future for him..
Dont get me wrong, I love jones and it appears he is a great teammate but take advantage of his career year.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:14 pm 
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This has been bantered on this board for a decade now. Now is the time for the organization to invest in the major league team. As much as we are all disappointed with the second half collapse and we still might not end up .500, we did improve this season record-wise and have some major pieces in place. There are definitely some holes and the Barmes signing was the worst since NH came aboard, but Nutting and Coonelly have to sit down and figure out how to make 2013 a legit contender. Let's face it. We got half of what we wanted - meaningful baseball in September. The next step is to make the playoffs. This is judgment year for Huntingdon. Get it done.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:18 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
This has been bantered on this board for a decade now. Now is the time for the organization to invest in the major league team. As much as we are all disappointed with the second half collapse and we still might not end up .500, we did improve this season record-wise and have some major pieces in place. There are definitely some holes and the Barmes signing was the worst since NH came aboard, but Nutting and Coonelly have to sit down and figure out how to make 2013 a legit contender. Let's face it. We got half of what we wanted - meaningful baseball in September. The next step is to make the playoffs. This is judgment year for Huntingdon. Get it done.


They currently will have the highest payroll in team history.

Next year they will look like this (* is estimated Arb award)-
Barmes 5.5
Cutch 4.7
Jones 3.5*
Walker 3.0*
Sanchez 2.5*
Tabata 1.2
Alvarez 0.7

Total for 7 bats is $21.1 million

Wandy $8.5
AJ $8.0
Karstens $4.0*
JMac $2.5*
Hanrahan $5.5*

Total $28.5 million for 5 pitchers.

So they are already at $50 million for 12 players. Lets say you want 3 vets and 10 young guys, add 485k times 10 for the young players, your total reaches $55 million.

So, start at $55 million, $2 million off the team record $57 million we are at now. Lets say Bob will allow a big jump to $65 million, you have $10 million to sign 1 to 3 players.

Folks, FA is not the answer. It can provide teh complimnetary pieces, but you can forget a big ticket.

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Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:37 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
This has been bantered on this board for a decade now. Now is the time for the organization to invest in the major league team. As much as we are all disappointed with the second half collapse and we still might not end up .500, we did improve this season record-wise and have some major pieces in place. There are definitely some holes and the Barmes signing was the worst since NH came aboard, but Nutting and Coonelly have to sit down and figure out how to make 2013 a legit contender. Let's face it. We got half of what we wanted - meaningful baseball in September. The next step is to make the playoffs. This is judgment year for Huntingdon. Get it done.


They currently will have the highest payroll in team history.

Next year they will look like this (* is estimated Arb award)-
Barmes 5.5
Cutch 4.7
Jones 3.5*
Walker 3.0*
Sanchez 2.5*
Tabata 1.2
Alvarez 0.7

Total for 7 bats is $21.1 million

Wandy $8.5
AJ $8.0
Karstens $4.0*
JMac $2.5*
Hanrahan $5.5*

Total $28.5 million for 5 pitchers.

So they are already at $50 million for 12 players. Lets say you want 3 vets and 10 young guys, add 485k times 10 for the young players, your total reaches $55 million.

So, start at $55 million, $2 million off the team record $57 million we are at now. Lets say Bob will allow a big jump to $65 million, you have $10 million to sign 1 to 3 players.

Folks, FA is not the answer. It can provide teh complimnetary pieces, but you can forget a big ticket.


I didn't say anything about free agency. Anyone who knows me knows I have said free agency is not the answer. What is the answer is to make a trade and possibly give up some prospects to help the major league team now. This has been brought up before as well in the past, but I argued it wasn't the time. Now is the time.

BB

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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:38 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
This has been bantered on this board for a decade now. Now is the time for the organization to invest in the major league team. As much as we are all disappointed with the second half collapse and we still might not end up .500, we did improve this season record-wise and have some major pieces in place. There are definitely some holes and the Barmes signing was the worst since NH came aboard, but Nutting and Coonelly have to sit down and figure out how to make 2013 a legit contender. Let's face it. We got half of what we wanted - meaningful baseball in September. The next step is to make the playoffs. This is judgment year for Huntingdon. Get it done.


They currently will have the highest payroll in team history.

Next year they will look like this (* is estimated Arb award)-
Barmes 5.5
Cutch 4.7
Jones 3.5*
Walker 3.0*
Sanchez 2.5*
Tabata 1.2
Alvarez 0.7

Total for 7 bats is $21.1 million

Wandy $8.5
AJ $8.0
Karstens $4.0*
JMac $2.5*
Hanrahan $5.5*

Total $28.5 million for 5 pitchers.

So they are already at $50 million for 12 players. Lets say you want 3 vets and 10 young guys, add 485k times 10 for the young players, your total reaches $55 million.

So, start at $55 million, $2 million off the team record $57 million we are at now. Lets say Bob will allow a big jump to $65 million, you have $10 million to sign 1 to 3 players.

Folks, FA is not the answer. It can provide teh complimnetary pieces, but you can forget a big ticket.


I agree. Might end up seeing us trade Jones + Hanrahan in this offseason. Free up some loot. Trade two guys coming off career years. Fill holes.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:41 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
They currently will have the highest payroll in team history.

Next year they will look like this (* is estimated Arb award)-
Barmes 5.5
Cutch 4.7
Jones 3.5*
Walker 3.0*
Sanchez 2.5*
Tabata 1.2
Alvarez 0.7

Total for 7 bats is $21.1 million

Wandy $8.5
AJ $8.0
Karstens $4.0*
JMac $2.5*
Hanrahan $5.5*

Total $28.5 million for 5 pitchers.

So they are already at $50 million for 12 players. Lets say you want 3 vets and 10 young guys, add 485k times 10 for the young players, your total reaches $55 million.

So, start at $55 million, $2 million off the team record $57 million we are at now. Lets say Bob will allow a big jump to $65 million, you have $10 million to sign 1 to 3 players.

Folks, FA is not the answer. It can provide teh complimnetary pieces, but you can forget a big ticket.

Milwaukee- 97 mill
Minnesota- 94
Atlanta- 83
Cincy- 82
Seattle- 81
Baltimore- 81
Cleveland- 78
Colorado- 78
Toronto- 75
Arizona- 74
Why can't the Pirates be somewhere in that neighborhood? Or at least closer? I'm not a proponent of bringing in a guy like Josh Hamilton. I know we couldn't afford Pujols/Fielder type players. But the GM(why I think we need a new one) nees to be able to find a way to either trade for or sign guys in that next tier, ala Aramis Ramirez. Instead we have spent years paying money to a bunch of washed up clowns. Again, I'm not suggesting we spend like the Yankees and Dodgers...but how about spending like other teams of our market size...oh, and spending wisely.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:57 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
They currently will have the highest payroll in team history.

Next year they will look like this (* is estimated Arb award)-
Barmes 5.5
Cutch 4.7
Jones 3.5*
Walker 3.0*
Sanchez 2.5*
Tabata 1.2
Alvarez 0.7

Total for 7 bats is $21.1 million

Wandy $8.5
AJ $8.0
Karstens $4.0*
JMac $2.5*
Hanrahan $5.5*

Total $28.5 million for 5 pitchers.

So they are already at $50 million for 12 players. Lets say you want 3 vets and 10 young guys, add 485k times 10 for the young players, your total reaches $55 million.

So, start at $55 million, $2 million off the team record $57 million we are at now. Lets say Bob will allow a big jump to $65 million, you have $10 million to sign 1 to 3 players.

Folks, FA is not the answer. It can provide teh complimnetary pieces, but you can forget a big ticket.

Milwaukee- 97 mill
Minnesota- 94
Atlanta- 83
Cincy- 82
Seattle- 81
Baltimore- 81
Cleveland- 78
Colorado- 78
Toronto- 75
Arizona- 74
Why can't the Pirates be somewhere in that neighborhood? Or at least closer? I'm not a proponent of bringing in a guy like Josh Hamilton. I know we couldn't afford Pujols/Fielder type players. But the GM(why I think we need a new one) nees to be able to find a way to either trade for or sign guys in that next tier, ala Aramis Ramirez. Instead we have spent years paying money to a bunch of washed up clowns. Again, I'm not suggesting we spend like the Yankees and Dodgers...but how about spending like other teams of our market size...oh, and spending wisely.


Bad TV deal, poor accessory revenues, worse attendence, low ticket prices, the list is long for why we can't spend 80 million. Losing for 20 years has a way of cutting revenue. We know for a fact that revenue was shockingly poor circa 2009 thanks to deadspin.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:58 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
This has been bantered on this board for a decade now. Now is the time for the organization to invest in the major league team. As much as we are all disappointed with the second half collapse and we still might not end up .500, we did improve this season record-wise and have some major pieces in place. There are definitely some holes and the Barmes signing was the worst since NH came aboard, but Nutting and Coonelly have to sit down and figure out how to make 2013 a legit contender. Let's face it. We got half of what we wanted - meaningful baseball in September. The next step is to make the playoffs. This is judgment year for Huntingdon. Get it done.


They currently will have the highest payroll in team history.

Next year they will look like this (* is estimated Arb award)-
Barmes 5.5
Cutch 4.7
Jones 3.5*
Walker 3.0*
Sanchez 2.5*
Tabata 1.2
Alvarez 0.7

Total for 7 bats is $21.1 million

Wandy $8.5
AJ $8.0
Karstens $4.0*
JMac $2.5*
Hanrahan $5.5*

Total $28.5 million for 5 pitchers.

So they are already at $50 million for 12 players. Lets say you want 3 vets and 10 young guys, add 485k times 10 for the young players, your total reaches $55 million.

So, start at $55 million, $2 million off the team record $57 million we are at now. Lets say Bob will allow a big jump to $65 million, you have $10 million to sign 1 to 3 players.

Folks, FA is not the answer. It can provide teh complimnetary pieces, but you can forget a big ticket.


I didn't say anything about free agency. Anyone who knows me knows I have said free agency is not the answer. What is the answer is to make a trade and possibly give up some prospects to help the major league team now. This has been brought up before as well in the past, but I argued it wasn't the time. Now is the time.

BB



I guess when I saw the word "invest" I thought you were talking money. At any rate, trading for more payroll will be limited too.

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Well NH did get Cutch signed, but what have you done for me lately?


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:10 am 
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I have made my case clear in 2 threads, sign a higher priced FA for 1 to 2 years rather than sign 3 has beens for the same amount you could spend on one guy...

Last year we could have signed willingham, kubel, cuddeyer, or aramis ramirez to a 2 year deal and it would have been less than than the annual salary combined between bedard, barajas and barmes.

Please Pirate front office, because I know you read these message boards :D , do not throw your money away on these older washed up players and actually take that money you would throw away on 3 players and actually sign someone that was good and still can be good, examples are listed above. And if players do not want to come here, than eat the money and save it up for next year.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:16 am 
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If I'm the Pirates, I'm looking into trading for Elvis Andrus or Danny Espinosa -- both would be long-term shortstop solutions. The former would cost quite a bit more, but he's an ideal lead-off hitter with a career OBP over .340. The latter plays second base for the Nationals, but can play shortstop at an above-average level. He's also a switch-hitter with some pop. Both players are available on the trade market because of the depth their teams have in the middle infield. Texas has Jurickson Profar coming up to take over at short, while the Nationals have Desmond at shortstop and options such as Lombardozzi and, eventually, Anthony Rendon at second base.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:27 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
If I'm the Pirates, I'm looking into trading for Elvis Andrus or Danny Espinosa -- both would be long-term shortstop solutions. The former would cost quite a bit more, but he's an ideal lead-off hitter with a career OBP over .340. The latter plays second base for the Nationals, but can play shortstop at an above-average level. He's also a switch-hitter with some pop. Both players are available on the trade market because of the depth their teams have in the middle infield. Texas has Jurickson Profar coming up to take over at short, while the Nationals have Desmond at shortstop and options such as Lombardozzi and, eventually, Anthony Rendon at second base.

I like it. Andrus may be a stretch, but he is by no means unattainable (unlike my dream of Tulo...), he would solve the lead-off problem and really help set the rest of the line-up (well, until you get to the 8 hole..... :roll: ).


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:48 am 
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I like your thinking but it would be a pipedream to land either of those two....The Nationals finally have made the playoffs for the first time since the 80's (dating back to them being the expos) and they will not trade their all star shortstop. The Rangers have tons of talent in the bigs and the minors but they will not give up andrus either, unless we give up 2-3 top tier prospects.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:15 pm 
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batterup wrote:
I have made my case clear in 2 threads, sign a higher priced FA for 1 to 2 years rather than sign 3 has beens for the same amount you could spend on one guy...

Last year we could have signed willingham, kubel, cuddeyer, or aramis ramirez to a 2 year deal and it would have been less than than the annual salary combined between bedard, barajas and barmes.


This just isn't true.

Cuddyer 3 years $31.5 million
Willingham 3 years $21 million
Kubel 2 years $16 million and a 3rd option year
AmRam 3 years $36 million

Every guy took a 3 year deal and we would have had to pay more to get any of them. As we saw last winter FA's turn down more money from us to sign elsewhere for less. I agree with your strategy, except for Cuddyer I would have liked any of the other 3 players, but it would have required a larger commitment than you are saying.

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