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 Post subject: Re: Hurdle is a genius....
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:44 pm 
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I see the same Clement we've seen in the past. Can't catch up to MLB pitching, except the rare HR between K's.

The guy is a AAAA player, at best.


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 Post subject: Re: Hurdle is a genius....
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:09 pm 
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True enough, he has not become a different person.


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 Post subject: Re: Hurdle is a genius....
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:00 pm 
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fuzzy159 wrote:
rellimie wrote:
Ollie wrote:
Why did he sit José Tábata? He always does that.. sits guys when they get hot.

If we finish below .500 Hurdle has to be canned. He needs to take Barmes and Barajas wherever he goes.


Again, why do people blame Barmes and Barajas for this? I don't get it. Yes I know they can't hit very well but we were 16 over when they weren't hitting. They aren't the issue.


Wait what....

That doesn't make them not the issue lol. Barmes and his 12:95 bb:k ratio definitely is an issue.


I'm not saying that they are not part of the issue. But they aren't at the top.


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 Post subject: Re: Hurdle is a genius....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:50 am 
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rellimie wrote:
fuzzy159 wrote:
rellimie wrote:
Again, why do people blame Barmes and Barajas for this? I don't get it. Yes I know they can't hit very well but we were 16 over when they weren't hitting. They aren't the issue.


Wait what....

That doesn't make them not the issue lol. Barmes and his 12:95 bb:k ratio definitely is an issue.


I'm not saying that they are not part of the issue. But they aren't at the top.

If they aren't at the top, who is? Barmes and Barajas are getting paid rather handsome contracts to play baseball for the Pirates, and their performance does not justify their respective salaries. Yes, the Pirates were winning in June and July despite their poor play, but now that McCutchen, McKenry and Jones have come back down to earth a bit, the lack of production from the SS and C positions has become magnified. If the Pirates had average hitters in place of Barmes and Barajas, I could see us with at least 4 more wins this season, which would put us in the 2nd Wild Card spot.

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 Post subject: Re: Hurdle is a genius....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:50 pm 
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i think hurdle might be applying at walmart shortly. huntington too,


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 Post subject: Re: Hurdle is a genius....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:35 pm 
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The only way I see Hurdle getting the axe is if this team stumbles out of the gate next year.

Whether or not that will happen or if I agree with it is another matter.

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Rage, rage against the regression of the light.


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 Post subject: Re: Hurdle is a genius....
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:18 am 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
The only way I see Hurdle getting the axe is if this team stumbles out of the gate next year.

Whether or not that will happen or if I agree with it is another matter.

Even just a couple of days ago I might have agreed; however the recent uninspired play of the entire team makes me wonder. Unless a shocking turnaround occurs, I think Hurdle might need to worry.


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 Post subject: Re: Hurdle is a genius....
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:36 pm 
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Chris Anderson wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
The only way I see Hurdle getting the axe is if this team stumbles out of the gate next year.

Whether or not that will happen or if I agree with it is another matter.

Even just a couple of days ago I might have agreed; however the recent uninspired play of the entire team makes me wonder. Unless a shocking turnaround occurs, I think Hurdle might need to worry.


It's possible, but... I think perhaps too reactionary.

I mean, would it be the 'right' move? What other managers are out there? Who can step in and provide what Hurdle so clearly has the first 80-100 games (the last 2 years) AND THEN get this potential-laden, slowly bonding team to the 'promised land'?

Hurdle has probably done just enough to buy himself time into next April/May.

Unless, of course, the Bucs do not win another game... But that's not going to happen. He'll hit/crack 81 and then the expectations will be the moon, at which point the axe sharpening can/will begin.

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 Post subject: Re: Hurdle is a genius....
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:52 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:

I mean, would it be the 'right' move? What other managers are out there? Who can step in and provide what Hurdle so clearly has the first 80-100 games (the last 2 years) AND THEN get this potential-laden, slowly bonding team to the 'promised land'?

Hurdle has probably done just enough to buy himself time into next April/May.

Unless, of course, the Bucs do not win another game... But that's not going to happen. He'll hit/crack 81 and then the expectations will be the moon, at which point the axe sharpening can/will begin.

I hear Bobby Valentine might be available soon :twisted: :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Hurdle is a genius....
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:14 pm 
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I think Clint Hurdle is one of the best Managers in MLB. Flame away...


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 Post subject: Re: Hurdle is a genius....
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:21 pm 
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No flaming away...but I would disagree. His inexplicable devotion to certain players despite their obvious failure to produce (in both standard and sabremetric indicators) is mind boggling. While there could be some argument about sticking with Clint Barmes because of his glove and the lack of depth at SS, there is NO valid argument to continue jogging Rod Barajas out there 4-5 times a week.


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 Post subject: Re: Hurdle is a genius....
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:25 pm 
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Chris Anderson wrote:
No flaming away...but I would disagree. His inexplicable devotion to certain players despite their obvious failure to produce (in both standard and sabremetric indicators) is mind boggling. While there could be some argument about sticking with Clint Barmes because of his glove and the lack of depth at SS, there is NO valid argument to continue jogging Rod Barajas out there 4-5 times a week.


We have ZERO good Major League catchers on this team right now. That's right , Michael McKenry sucks too...


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 Post subject: Re: Hurdle is a genius....
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:26 pm 
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Also, I joked earlier in this thread about Bobby Valentine. Can you think of another manager that is more overrated than Bobby V in recent memory? There was such a big deal about him coming to Boston, like a savior. He hasn't won shit in his career! Texas was never better than mediocre while he was their manager. The Mets, despite a huge payroll and several big name players, NEVER won their division. Yes, they made it to the W.S. is 2000, but as a Wild Card team. Overall in his career, he is barely better than a break-even manager with his teams finishing an average of 3.8th in their division.

Combine the mediocre record with his "hijinks" and I think he just basically blows.


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 Post subject: Re: Hurdle is a genius....
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:47 pm 
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CashInFist wrote:
Chris Anderson wrote:
No flaming away...but I would disagree. His inexplicable devotion to certain players despite their obvious failure to produce (in both standard and sabremetric indicators) is mind boggling. While there could be some argument about sticking with Clint Barmes because of his glove and the lack of depth at SS, there is NO valid argument to continue jogging Rod Barajas out there 4-5 times a week.


We have ZERO good Major League catchers on this team right now. That's right , Michael McKenry sucks too...



Overall McKenry has over an .800 OPS (11th amongst catchers with as many PA's). His WAR is 1.4 (16th in MLB for catchers). While he may not be a superstar, he does not suck. The one area that he seems to suffer in is his catcher's ERA (4.23), however one could say that he doesn't necessarily get a fair shake there, because the team's BEST pitcher uses Barajas as his personal caddie, as did McDonald for a majority of the year. That left the Fort catching Bedard, Correia, et al, not exactly helpful to him there.


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 Post subject: Re: Hurdle is a genius....
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:20 pm 
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Chris Anderson wrote:
CashInFist wrote:
Chris Anderson wrote:
No flaming away...but I would disagree. His inexplicable devotion to certain players despite their obvious failure to produce (in both standard and sabremetric indicators) is mind boggling. While there could be some argument about sticking with Clint Barmes because of his glove and the lack of depth at SS, there is NO valid argument to continue jogging Rod Barajas out there 4-5 times a week.


We have ZERO good Major League catchers on this team right now. That's right , Michael McKenry sucks too...



Overall McKenry has over an .800 OPS (11th amongst catchers with as many PA's). His WAR is 1.4 (16th in MLB for catchers). While he may not be a superstar, he does not suck. The one area that he seems to suffer in is his catcher's ERA (4.23), however one could say that he doesn't necessarily get a fair shake there, because the team's BEST pitcher uses Barajas as his personal caddie, as did McDonald for a majority of the year. That left the Fort catching Bedard, Correia, et al, not exactly helpful to him there.


McKenry can NOT throw out a baserunner! Par for our course.


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 Post subject: Re: Hurdle is a genius....
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:42 pm 
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McKenry's CS% is pathetic...but it's still nearly twice Barajas. Interestingly, his minor league numbers indicate he is better at throwing runners out than he has this year (career 36% throwing out runners...which isn't bad).

With both Barajas and McKenry sucking so bad (and much worse than their career averages) it makes me wonder how much of the onus should be placed on the pitching staff not holding the runners well?


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 Post subject: Re: Hurdle is a genius....
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:54 pm 
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Whether or not Hurdle is a good manager, he's put himself in a win or bust situation.

By leading this squad to back-to-back breakout starts, it's clear he has the ability to get this talented team on the right track and deliver on their promise.

The second half swoons show that he either may not be the man to take this team all the way, or perhaps cannot focus them for a full 162+.

In any event, the success of this team in such a short time is due in some part to him and now it's pretty much 'playoffs or off with his head' come next year, as the bar has clearly been raised (as was expected and should have been).

If the Bucs don's reach/crack 81 this year, Hurdle is in trouble. If the Bucs start slow next year, Hurdle is in trouble. If the Bucs swoon after the break again (after a strong start), Hurdle is in trouble.

Unless Hurdle and the Bucs are a successful playoff team next year, Hurdle will find himself a victim of success.

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Rage, rage against the regression of the light.


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 Post subject: Re: Hurdle is a genius....
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:24 am 
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Chris Anderson wrote:
No flaming away...but I would disagree. His inexplicable devotion to certain players despite their obvious failure to produce (in both standard and sabremetric indicators) is mind boggling. While there could be some argument about sticking with Clint Barmes because of his glove and the lack of depth at SS, there is NO valid argument to continue jogging Rod Barajas out there 4-5 times a week.


Couldn't agree more, Chris. On top of that, his in-game strategy is just mind boggling. He'd do well to hire a sharp strategic mind for a bench coach- and listen to him.

As for the Barajas-McKenry argument- McKenry is better in nearly every facet of the game. I think that the pitching staff as a whole has been ignoring the running game- either by a conscious decision or by plain old inability- hence why both C's have a low CS%. And you hit the nail right on the head when discussing CERA- of course McKenry's will be higher when you look at which catchers caught which pitchers.

McKenry is not a superstar. He is not even a top 10 catcher. But there is no rational argument to be made that he doesn't give the team a better chance to win when started in place of Rod Barajas. Ergo, choosing to start Barajas is not putting your team in the best position to win.


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