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 Post subject: What Makes a Good Manager
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:07 am 
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Should be an interesting piece from BP, only read the Cutch and Hanrahan comments thus far -

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/artic ... leid=18302

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 Post subject: Re: What Makes a Good Manager
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:40 pm 
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Two interesting quotes -

Cutch - "It’s not [the manager] that wins the game, they’re here to manage the game. It’s up to us to win it."

Joel - "(Fans and media) don’t see anything, to be honest with you. I think everybody has something they can tell you, the fans see, they read the papers and stuff. But to be honest, 98 percent (of a manager’s job) is stuff they don’t see."


So, how do you weigh this kind of thing with teh obvious in game managing/team performance that we do see? I ask mainly because some are pushing hard for firing Hurdle. I disliked the hire from day 1, but I will say Hurdle is publically a good leader/face of the team.

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 Post subject: Re: What Makes a Good Manager
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:05 pm 
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Hurdle would make a stupendous used car salesman. I have a feeling he could sell ice to an eskimo.

All I can say regarding the Pirates/ Hurdles management of them, is I haven't agreed quite a few times this season with pulling pitchers what I felt was early (like last night), and for a team that obviously lacks talent they need to play hardnosed fundamental baseball and I have seen far too many mistakes for my liking.

Plus, for a second year in a row, the team nosedives after the break....not sure what part of that Hurdle would be on the hook for....


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 Post subject: Re: What Makes a Good Manager
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:33 pm 
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As a casual observer, Hurdle seemed the perfect antidote last year to decades of losing. He was aggressively optimistic in the few interviews I saw with him, and for a team with our recent history, I think we needed that. He had to change the mindset of losing, that was Job #1, and I think he's done that very well.

What the article doesn't specifically state, is that there are many different skill sets to managing a team, and each manager is going to have strengths and weaknesses. Hurdle seems to have been the perfect manager for last year. Maybe he lacks the skill to keep a team fresh and focused over a 162 game season. And Clint may suck at the man-managing aspects of the game, but most everything I've read on the subject, across sports, is that players DO NOT think it is as important an aspect of the game as we fans do. Game day decisions are just what we, as arm chair QBs, can understand. As so we obsess about it.

The things that concern me as a fan is when a manager gets stubbornly loyal to a player who cannot perform at this level (I'm thinking Barajas), one who cannot help his players get better (is this as good as Pedro gets), and a realistic assessment of the quality of his team (after June and July, many of us thought we were playoff material and the reality is that maybe we never were).


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 Post subject: Re: What Makes a Good Manager
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:47 pm 
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Well i think this team lacks in coaching. When you have the bases loaded twice and can't get a run home theres something wrong. They just seem to swing at everything. All you have to do is get on base, take a walk, whatever. As herm edwards said "YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!".

Why they stick with barajas i don't know. I heard they used 8 catchers last year. None of them could have been any worse than barajas.


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 Post subject: Re: What Makes a Good Manager
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:10 pm 
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Clevelandsux wrote:
Well i think this team lacks in coaching. When you have the bases loaded twice and can't get a run home theres something wrong. They just seem to swing at everything. All you have to do is get on base, take a walk, whatever. As herm edwards said "YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!".

Why they stick with barajas i don't know. I heard they used 8 catchers last year. None of them could have been any worse than barajas.


Oh yes they were. Dusty Brown, Wyatt Toregas, Matt Pagnozzi, Eric Fryer. Even McKenry sucked at the plate last year with an OPS almost the same as Barajas this year.

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 Post subject: Re: What Makes a Good Manager
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:03 pm 
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I think the last two trade deadline years haven't yeilded much. They've done two things, they didn't bring in impact players and they shook up team chemistry. I guess we'll never know what the team before the all-star break could've done as opposed to what we have now.

So, I don't know if it's the manager or not. When a player doesn't come through in the clutch, is that on the manager? Pedro has shown games where he gets streaky. So we as fans know Pedro has it in him. Where does that streakiness go? Why can't there be more consistency with the power numbers from Pedro? Is that on the manager?

Was Wandy wearing down last night? The manager knows more than we do sitting from the couch. Fact is Hughes didn't come through. Who else were they bringing in there? Resop? Blown the last two game Grilli? I don't know.

I'm saying it's the players underperforming right now. No excuses. Clint Hurdle is a good manager, not great, but he's good. And he's a positive person. Someone strict I'd say, but positive. Just what a young team needs.

Here this now. I think this team is sliding because in the back of there hearts they know what happened last year and they're letting it get to them. Putting unadded pressure on themselves. Thie team shouldn't have the worst record in the league since the allstar break.


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 Post subject: Re: What Makes a Good Manager
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:21 pm 
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Here's the deal with managers. A huge majority of their decisions, well over 90%, are complete no-brainers that any manager and most intelligent fans would have made. The small percentage that remains are basically coin tosses, where you could make a decent argument for either side. In the course of a season a manager's in-game decisions probably don't swing his team's record by more than five or so games either way. Baseball history has a ton of guys who sucked as managers, then were hired to manage talented teams, and suddenly become geniuses and earned enshrinement at Cooperstown. Casey Stengel was one of those. More recently, think Joe Torre. The important things a manager does are things that you rarely see, because most of them happen behind the scenes. A good manager is one who gets the most from his players but putting them in situations where they are more likely to succeed, keeping them active enough so that they aren't asked to pinch hit for their first at bat in two weeks with two men on and two outs while behind by one run in the ninth. They keep their guys focused and ready. Is Hurdle doing that? Beats me. I think he does, though he always seems to have one guy on the roster glued to the bench.

Oh, by the way, screw chemistry, unless you are prepared to show me that the departure of Lincoln and McGehee somehow caused the starting pitcher to give up on the season.

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 Post subject: Re: What Makes a Good Manager
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:10 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
. Baseball history has a ton of guys who sucked as managers, then were hired to manage talented
Oh, by the way, screw chemistry, unless you are prepared to show me that the departure of Lincoln and McGehee somehow caused the starting pitcher to give up on the season.


ARe you referring to j-mac? I think hurdle is the best manager we've had since leyland. Even leyland couldn't win without talent, reason he left. Although i liked mcclendon eventhough we didn't win a whole lot with him.


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 Post subject: Re: What Makes a Good Manager
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:34 am 
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buccosfan77 wrote:
I think the last two trade deadline years haven't yeilded much. They've done two things, they didn't bring in impact players and they shook up team chemistry. I guess we'll never know what the team before the all-star break could've done as opposed to what we have now.

So, I don't know if it's the manager or not. When a player doesn't come through in the clutch, is that on the manager? Pedro has shown games where he gets streaky. So we as fans know Pedro has it in him. Where does that streakiness go? Why can't there be more consistency with the power numbers from Pedro? Is that on the manager?

Was Wandy wearing down last night? The manager knows more than we do sitting from the couch. Fact is Hughes didn't come through. Who else were they bringing in there? Resop? Blown the last two game Grilli? I don't know.

I'm saying it's the players underperforming right now. No excuses. Clint Hurdle is a good manager, not great, but he's good. And he's a positive person. Someone strict I'd say, but positive. Just what a young team needs.

Here this now. I think this team is sliding because in the back of there hearts they know what happened last year and they're letting it get to them. Putting unadded pressure on themselves. Thie team shouldn't have the worst record in the league since the allstar break.


Gotta disagree about tis trade deadline, we added three big upgrades over what we were playing in the first half.

Wandy - 3.57 ERA 1.23 WHIP as a Pirate, much better than Correia
Snider - .265/.354/.367, more than 150 ops points better than our LF production from Tabata/Presley
Gaby - .270/.357/.446, more than 125 points better ops than McGehee

The collapse has happened despite the upgrades, not because of them. Chemistry is a myth. Good chemistry comes from winning, not having good guys on the bench. The collapse has required failings from every aspect of the team. I put some of this on Hurdle, largely because I feel we were winning in spite of his poor strategy/coaching early on, but now the gaffes are killing us. Things like base running and bullpen management are certainly on Hurdle. Also, how is Gregg Ritchie still employed?

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 Post subject: Re: What Makes a Good Manager
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:39 am 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
buccosfan77 wrote:
I think the last two trade deadline years haven't yeilded much. They've done two things, they didn't bring in impact players and they shook up team chemistry. I guess we'll never know what the team before the all-star break could've done as opposed to what we have now.

So, I don't know if it's the manager or not. When a player doesn't come through in the clutch, is that on the manager? Pedro has shown games where he gets streaky. So we as fans know Pedro has it in him. Where does that streakiness go? Why can't there be more consistency with the power numbers from Pedro? Is that on the manager?

Was Wandy wearing down last night? The manager knows more than we do sitting from the couch. Fact is Hughes didn't come through. Who else were they bringing in there? Resop? Blown the last two game Grilli? I don't know.

I'm saying it's the players underperforming right now. No excuses. Clint Hurdle is a good manager, not great, but he's good. And he's a positive person. Someone strict I'd say, but positive. Just what a young team needs.

Here this now. I think this team is sliding because in the back of there hearts they know what happened last year and they're letting it get to them. Putting unadded pressure on themselves. Thie team shouldn't have the worst record in the league since the allstar break.


Gotta disagree about tis trade deadline, we added three big upgrades over what we were playing in the first half.

Wandy - 3.57 ERA 1.23 WHIP as a Pirate, much better than Correia
Snider - .265/.354/.367, more than 150 ops points better than our LF production from Tabata/Presley
Gaby - .270/.357/.446, more than 125 points better ops than McGehee

The collapse has happened despite the upgrades, not because of them. Chemistry is a myth. Good chemistry comes from winning, not having good guys on the bench. The collapse has required failings from every aspect of the team. I put some of this on Hurdle, largely because I feel we were winning in spite of his poor strategy/coaching early on, but now the gaffes are killing us. Things like base running and bullpen management are certainly on Hurdle. Also, how is Gregg Ritchie still employed?



Also...you shouldn't need any huge mid-season upgrades to avoid being swept by the damn Cubs.

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 Post subject: Re: What Makes a Good Manager
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:43 am 
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Philly and Milwaukee were big sellers at the deadline and they are playing better now.

It's all about pressure and how you handle it.


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 Post subject: Re: What Makes a Good Manager
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:27 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
Philly and Milwaukee were big sellers at the deadline and they are playing better now.

It's all about pressure and how you handle it.


And coming together as a team/'believing in each other'.

Somewhere after the break this team either started believing a little to hard in Zoltan, stopped believing at all, or... I don't know.

The results speak for themselves though.

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 Post subject: Re: What Makes a Good Manager
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:47 am 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
And coming together as a team/'believing in each other'.


Hence the Navy SEALS situation......I think it is great.... 8-) 8-) 8-)


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