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 Post subject: No Leadership on the Field
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:44 pm 
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I posted in the PG+ that I think part of the problem is that there is no true leader on the Pirates. There's no one with fire and grit and guts who gives it his all and the other guys follow his lead. It's Jeter on the Yankees. It was Don Hoak (waaay back) on the 1960 Pirates. It was Willie Stargell (with his stars) in '79. The Pirates are a young team with no real leader, and I think this is part of the problem.

So much of baseball is mental, especially with the long season and ups and downs, and every team needs a guy or two who are the spiritual leaders as well as solid on the field. Those guys who will call out themselves and others and are respected so they can do this and get the guys to play 100%. Is there a solution to this? This year? I don't know, I don't think so. What I see with the Bucs is that a guy will strike out and drag himself back to the dugout like a beaten dog. Who remembers Jay Bell? He would occasionally take a bat to the water cooler after striking out. There's no fire on this team, no guts.

Rant over.


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 Post subject: Re: No Leadership on the Field
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:42 pm 
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I respectfully disagree, Doc...AJ has been as much a team leader as I have seen since Stargell.


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 Post subject: Re: No Leadership on the Field
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:47 pm 
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bradf wrote:
I respectfully disagree, Doc...AJ has been as much a team leader as I have seen since Stargell.


Brad, AJ is a pitcher....he's not on the field day in and day out. I agree that he's a leader, but not for the 8 guys on the field. My impression.


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 Post subject: Re: No Leadership on the Field
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:33 pm 
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Agree on AJ. This guy is intense and hates to lose. If hes winning 8-0 and they take him out, he's pissed. My favorite moment by AJ is when he struck out Hanley Ramirez after ramirez was showboating after a HR at his previous at bat.

The 90's pirates had Van Slyke. Never thought Bonds was a leader.


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 Post subject: Re: No Leadership on the Field
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:40 pm 
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And, Jay Bell took his bat to the water cooler more than once on that team. Bonds was not a leader. Not sure about Bonilla.... Maybe McClendon?

The Nationals have done very well this year, and Bryce Harper credits help from the veterans (LaRoche, Werth) with helping him. Bucs don't have those types of guys. They have Barmes and Barajas!!


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 Post subject: Re: No Leadership on the Field
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:14 am 
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Justy about every young player on that team has gone on record to support Barmes.....saying what a great veteran presence he has, how he helps younger guys, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: No Leadership on the Field
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:17 am 
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The Bucs were awful in 09 and 10 or whatever when they had LaRoche's uncanny leadership out on the field.

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 Post subject: Re: No Leadership on the Field
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:56 pm 
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Animal wrote:
Justy about every young player on that team has gone on record to support Barmes.....saying what a great veteran presence he has, how he helps younger guys, etc.


He's helped them how? Hit .220? I'm sorry. Just in a snarky mood this morning.....


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 Post subject: Re: No Leadership on the Field
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:20 pm 
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DocJeanO wrote:
Animal wrote:
Justy about every young player on that team has gone on record to support Barmes.....saying what a great veteran presence he has, how he helps younger guys, etc.


He's helped them how? Hit .220? I'm sorry. Just in a snarky mood this morning.....


You were talking about veteran presence and leadership, and working with younger players, not performance. I saw an interview with Neil Walker where he attributed a lot of his success and improvement this year to help from Barmes.

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 Post subject: Re: No Leadership on the Field
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:31 pm 
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Lately, the Pirates don't seem as though they expect to win when they take the field. Earlier in the year, they did.

Maybe, by making those deals at the trade deadline, the F.O. told them that they don't expect them to win either--self-fullfilling prophesy.

As a fan do you find yourself expecting a win or loss more often right now?


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 Post subject: Re: No Leadership on the Field
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:48 pm 
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There's different levels of leadership. There is the quiet, lead-by-example player (probably Barmes) and the fiery, flip the buffet table, rah-rah leader.

Right now, this team needs the Rah-Rah leader....


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 Post subject: Re: No Leadership on the Field
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:50 pm 
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clwbt wrote:
Lately, the Pirates don't seem as though they expect to win when they take the field. Earlier in the year, they did.

Maybe, by making those deals at the trade deadline, the F.O. told them that they don't expect them to win either--self-fullfilling prophesy.

As a fan do you find yourself expecting a win or loss more often right now?

In and of themselves, I don't think that trade deadline deals signal that the team isn't good enough in the way you are hypothesizing. Chemistry matters and all, and it can usually be diagnosed as in we-lost-it after the fact, but I think making midseason acquisitions sends the opposite signal. We have to get better. Or, the season goals have changed and we're looking at the playoffs. And ownership is bringing in players to help. Sure, marginal players may be a little aggrieved that they'll be playing less, but they are the marginal players....


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 Post subject: Re: No Leadership on the Field
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:08 pm 
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[quote="valI think making midseason acquisitions sends the opposite signal. We have to get better. Or, the season goals have changed and we're looking at the playoffs. And ownership is bringing in players to help. quote]

I agree that bringing in players signals that we want to get better. But the crux of the issue is the players that come over. Wandy Rodriguez excepted, the acquisitions were players with a chance to develop in the future; not ones who will help right now. Hence, the message that we are not ready to win now. We are still in a building mode.

Not saying there's anything wrong with that. It was probably the right thing to do. I am just saying that message may have helped to create the funk that mires the team right now.


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 Post subject: Re: No Leadership on the Field
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:11 pm 
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clwbt wrote:
[quote="valI think making midseason acquisitions sends the opposite signal. We have to get better. Or, the season goals have changed and we're looking at the playoffs. And ownership is bringing in players to help. quote]

I agree that bringing in players signals that we want to get better. But the crux of the issue is the players that come over. Wandy Rodriguez excepted, the acquisitions were players with a chance to develop in the future; not ones who will help right now. Hence, the message that we are not ready to win now. We are still in a building mode.

Not saying there's anything wrong with that. It was probably the right thing to do. I am just saying that message may have helped to create the funk that mires the team right now.[/quote]


I disagree.
Wandy was in improvement in the rotation.
Snider was in improvement over Tabata and Presley that we were running out there.
Sanchez was an improvement as a RH hitting 1b over McGehee.

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 Post subject: Re: No Leadership on the Field
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:52 pm 
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Of course we got better. But, these guys weren't brought in to win the division this year. They are currently not difference makers--maybe one day; not today.


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 Post subject: Re: No Leadership on the Field
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:26 am 
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clwbt wrote:
Of course we got better. But, these guys weren't brought in to win the division this year. They are currently not difference makers--maybe one day; not today.


So, you're a proponent of selling future talent for rentals and 1 year fixes. That strategy is not viable for this franchise under the current CBA.

Besides Wandy was the 4th best SP traded at the deadline. I personally did not like the trade, but its really hard to argue that it wasn't a significant move to upgrade for this year.

Trading for Hanley was impossible due to future salary (its laughable to suggest the Marlins would eat salary).

So its Victorino or Pence instead of Snider? Lets compare

Pence (1 year control) .234/.299/.375
Victorino (FA to be) .238/.298/.323
Snider (4 years control) .271/.360/.375

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 Post subject: Re: No Leadership on the Field
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:33 am 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
clwbt wrote:
Of course we got better. But, these guys weren't brought in to win the division this year. They are currently not difference makers--maybe one day; not today.


So, you're a proponent of selling future talent for rentals and 1 year fixes. That strategy is not viable for this franchise under the current CBA.

Besides Wandy was the 4th best SP traded at the deadline. I personally did not like the trade, but its really hard to argue that it wasn't a significant move to upgrade for this year.

Trading for Hanley was impossible due to future salary (its laughable to suggest the Marlins would eat salary).

So its Victorino or Pence instead of Snider? Lets compare

Pence (1 year control) .234/.299/.375
Victorino (FA to be) .238/.298/.323
Snider (4 years control) .271/.360/.375

And then there was Shin Soo Choo, who many here wanted but debated over whether the Pirates should mortgage the farm for him.

Choo (2 more years of control): .243/.331/.364 since the trading deadline.

I'd say we got a pretty good deal in Snider.

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 Post subject: Re: No Leadership on the Field
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:02 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
So, you're a proponent of selling future talent for rentals and 1 year fixes. That strategy is not viable for this franchise under the current CBA.

Besides Wandy was the 4th best SP traded at the deadline. I personally did not like the trade, but its really hard to argue that it wasn't a significant move to upgrade for this year.

Trading for Hanley was impossible due to future salary (its laughable to suggest the Marlins would eat salary).

So its Victorino or Pence instead of Snider? Lets compare

Pence (1 year control) .234/.299/.375
Victorino (FA to be) .238/.298/.323
Snider (4 years control) .271/.360/.375

And then there was Shin Soo Choo, who many here wanted but debated over whether the Pirates should mortgage the farm for him.

Choo (2 more years of control): .243/.331/.364 since the trading deadline.

I'd say we got a pretty good deal in Snider.

The Snider trade is going to look really good in the near future(if he keeps his hammys healthy!). He reminds me a lot of a young Brian Giles, and we've yet to see the power.

There was only one guy here that really wanted Choo, and that was the legendary talent scout House of Poe.

I guess if there was one possible(and that is the key word) trade left on the table that I wish we would have pulled the trigger on, it would be the Headley potential deal(If you believe what was reported).


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 Post subject: Re: No Leadership on the Field
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:20 pm 
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I'm not watching every game, but I'm starting to be forced to agree with the OP (or at least the concept).

That Zoltan and 'hey, we're finally winning after 19 years!' sentiment can only go so far.

These guys need to realize that they're a stone's throw from being legitimate contenders.

Someone should be in the clubhouse, every night if necessary, reminding these guys just that so as to prevent games like tonight (or the opening game vs. Houston).

The time for 'this is fun' is over. It's time to get serious and develop and show off an edge---a killer instinct.

Because it's been 'fun' thus far, but it's not like there haven't been absolutely brutal days like today.

Let the fans have 'fun'. This team needs to win.

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