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 Post subject: What might have been????
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:59 pm 
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You know, it still sickens me to see Aramis Ramirez wearing another uniform. I hope this never happens with Pedro, Walker, and Cutch.

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 Post subject: Re: What might have been????
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:11 pm 
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I desperately wanted them to make him an offer he couldn't turn down this offseason. All he does is hit....


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 Post subject: Re: What might have been????
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:25 pm 
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Well, I hate to say it but you know that Pedro will test free agency and probably be gone - after the '16 season. Scott Boras is his agent and his people always test free agency.


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 Post subject: Re: What might have been????
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:34 pm 
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DocJeanO wrote:
Well, I hate to say it but you know that Pedro will test free agency and probably be gone - after the '16 season. Scott Boras is his agent and his people always test free agency.


I can keep out hope...but even that would not be as bad as the fiasco that cost us Ramirez.

And Pedro reminds me so much of him...right down to the defensive lapses despite not being bad defensively. ARam has also been best defensive 3b this year.

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 Post subject: Re: What might have been????
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:34 pm 
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Ramirez, Giles were part of that big 2003 firesale.


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 Post subject: Re: What might have been????
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:40 pm 
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Clevelandsux wrote:
Ramirez, Giles were part of that big 2003 firesale.


Yeah, but Giles was already 32...and we got 2 great players for him in Bay and Perez.

We got NOTHING for a 25 year old up and coming power hitter, who has hit 64 HR the previous 2 1/2 seasons, PLUS Kenny Lofton. NOTHING!

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 Post subject: Re: What might have been????
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:43 pm 
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I remember being pissed after that trade. I said i was done with the Pirates because of shitty management.


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 Post subject: Re: What might have been????
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:53 pm 
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Wasn't it some kind of forced salary dump with Ramirez? Something to do with profit/salary ratio?? The problem was, of course, that they didn't get anything of value for him. Maybe everyone in MLB knew they had to trade him? I don't know. That is still shrouded in secrecy.....we will never know what really happened.


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 Post subject: Re: What might have been????
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:09 am 
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I don't even remember who we got for him...was that the deal they told us we were going to love this guy coming to us...a second baseman who had one decent year and flamed out....ooh, ooh Warren Morris???


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 Post subject: Re: What might have been????
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:33 am 
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bradf wrote:
I don't even remember who we got for him...was that the deal they told us we were going to love this guy coming to us...a second baseman who had one decent year and flamed out....ooh, ooh Warren Morris???


No it wasn't Warren Morris. I WISH we would have gotten someone who did as much as Morris.

We traded ARam and Kenny Lofton for Matt Brubeck and Jose Hernandez, and a player to be named later who Littlefield (it WAS DL, right??) told us was going to make us forget about ARam.. THe PTBN (about a mont later) turned out to be Bobby Hill. Hill went on to play 2 years for the Bucs, hitting .262 2ith 4 HR and 38 RBI. Hernandez wnet on to play 58 games for the Bucs that year, hitting .223 with 3 HR, 21 RBI, and 56 strikeouts in just about 200 ABs. Bucs released him after the season. Of course, the Bucs must have REALLY LOVED Hernandez, because they signed him as a free agent in 2006 at the age of 36.\

I don't think Brubeck ever saw the majors.

Of course, the trade wasn't bad. ARam only went on to hit 239 HR in 9 years with the Cubs, with BA of .294, with 3 years with 30+ HR and another 4 with 20+, 4 years with 100+ RBI and another 2 with 90+. Oh yeah, and for good measure Lofton went on to hit .327 for the Cubs the rest of the season with 3 HR, 20 RBI, 12 SB, and 39 runs in 56 games.

Oh, one other point of interest...at the time of the trade, the Cubs were 40-34, in second place. They went 48-40 after the trade to finish in first.

Not that I am bitter or anything.

Oh, and since you asked..the Bucs got Warren Morris back in 1998 with Todd Van Poppel for Estaban Loiza. He hit .288 as a rookie in ;99 with 15 HR and 73 RBI....then struggled over the next 4 years, hitting a TOTAL of 12 HR.

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 Post subject: Re: What might have been????
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:24 am 
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DocJeanO wrote:
Wasn't it some kind of forced salary dump with Ramirez? Something to do with profit/salary ratio?? The problem was, of course, that they didn't get anything of value for him. Maybe everyone in MLB knew they had to trade him? I don't know. That is still shrouded in secrecy.....we will never know what really happened.


No shroud of secrecy at all. Pirate management came out in the papers and said they had to dump salary because of the debt ratio. The equivalent of putting your car for sale in a local wanted and adding a disclaimer that you must sell it because you need the money and you'll accept much less than the asking price.

Kris Benson was the Pirate most speculated to go but got hurt right around that time, leaving Ramirez as he obvious choice to go.


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 Post subject: Re: What might have been????
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:10 pm 
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DocJeanO wrote:
Wasn't it some kind of forced salary dump with Ramirez? Something to do with profit/salary ratio?? The problem was, of course, that they didn't get anything of value for him. Maybe everyone in MLB knew they had to trade him? I don't know. That is still shrouded in secrecy.....we will never know what really happened.

Yes it was, the rule that has only been enforced one time, against the Pirates. MLB didn't force the Mets or Dodgers to give away talent when they were deeper in the hole than the Pirates ever were.

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 Post subject: Re: What might have been????
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:16 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
DocJeanO wrote:
Wasn't it some kind of forced salary dump with Ramirez? Something to do with profit/salary ratio?? The problem was, of course, that they didn't get anything of value for him. Maybe everyone in MLB knew they had to trade him? I don't know. That is still shrouded in secrecy.....we will never know what really happened.

Yes it was, the rule that has only been enforced one time, against the Pirates. MLB didn't force the Mets or Dodgers to give away talent when they were deeper in the hole than the Pirates ever were.


Or the Rangers, who I believe actually ACQUIRED one Cliff Lee while fighting (some sort of) bankruptcy.

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 Post subject: Re: What might have been????
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:06 pm 
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bradf wrote:
I don't even remember who we got for him...


This guy ...

Image


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 Post subject: Re: What might have been????
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:25 pm 
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Whatever happened to the great Ron Wright? Remember he was the great prospect the Bucs kept talking about for years. I'm not sure he ever saw the majors?

I think the Pirates Paid 20 years for the early 90's run that they had.


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 Post subject: Re: What might have been????
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:56 pm 
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Clevelandsux wrote:
Whatever happened to the great Ron Wright? Remember he was the great prospect the Bucs kept talking about for years. I'm not sure he ever saw the majors?

I think the Pirates Paid 20 years for the early 90's run that they had.


Ron Wright was a power hitting 1b acquired in August of '96 from the Braves, along with a player to be named later for Denny Neagle.

Neagle did not do much the rest of the year in helping Atlanta get to the playoffs, but he had a monster 1999, finishing 20-5, with 2.97 ERA, finishing 3rd in Cy Young ballotting.

Wright, at the time of the trade was a 20 year old power hitting 1b at AA, who had hit already hit 72 minor league HR (at the age of 20!!!!)..He was the big name in the trade. He had 16 HR and 63 RBI, in just 90 games....while batting .304 for Calgary (Pirates AAA) in 1997. Then, if I recall correctly(and someone please correct me if I am wrong)..he starting having back trouble. He only played 20 minor league games in 1998 (at Nashville-AAA) and 24 minor league games in 1999 (at Altoona).

The Reds got him on waivers in Oct 1999...only to be released at the end of season. He then signed with Devil Rays in Nov 2000, then with Seattle in Nov 2001. After those 72 HR by the age of 20, he had the following minor league HR totals over the next 8 years, 16 in '97, 2 in '98, 0 in '99, 14 in 2000, 20 in '01, 15 in '02, 9 in '03, and 3 in '04. So talk about bad luck for the Bucs....72 HR by the age of 20, then 79 in the next 8 years after becoming Pirate property!

He got in one and only one career major league game with Seattle on April 14, 2002, going 0-3 as a DH.

Now, back to Neagle...the Bucs traded him away at the age of 27...he went on to have three pretty good years in Atlanta, finishing there 38-19, 3.43, before going to Cinncy, the Yankees, and Colorado.

Now, the Braves threw in a 23 year old pttcher with some prior injury problems, who had underachieved in the majors. He had been a decent minor league prospect but was 2-2 with 5.76 ERA for Atlanta in 1995 and 3-4, 6.70 ERA in 1996 for Atlanta. The Bucs immediately put him in their rotation and he finished out '96 for the Bucs with 2-2, 4.06 ERA. He did okay for the Bucs after that, winning 10 games in 1997, 11 in 1998, and 13 in '99. That pitcher? Jason Schmidt.

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