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 Post subject: Re: Cole Traded to the Astros - For Real This Time
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:15 am 
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hebner20 wrote:
Per Email received from pirates:

Pirates acquire Michael Feliz, Jason Martin, Colin Moran and Joe Musgrove from Houston in exchange for Gerrit Cole
The Pittsburgh Pirates today acquired right-handed relief pitcher Michael Feliz, outfielder Jason Martin, third baseman Colin Moran and right-handed starting pitcher Joe Musgrove from the Houston Astros in exchange for Gerrit Cole. The announcement was made by Executive Vice President, General Manager Neal Huntington.

"Trading Gerrit Cole was not an easy decision. We are very appreciative for what Gerrit has done for our team and organization, especially his important role on the 2013-15 playoff teams," added Huntington. “Acquiring these four quality young players, three of whom we project to be an important part of our 2018 team, with many years of potential contribution, is an important step for us as we work toward bringing playoff baseball back to our fans."



How do you seriously trade Cole away for that haul and put 2018 and playoffs in the same sentence?
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 Post subject: Re: Cole Traded to the Astros - For Real This Time
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:51 am 
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Easy, their pitching is the best in the NLC.

You just pulled 3 players off the Astro's 40 man, and a highly regarded OF prospect. For a guy most of you were bitching about last year.

You needed a 3B to groom because Freese cannot go 150 games anymore. You got him. You got a guy that projects to the starting 5. You got bullpen help now.

We'll see, but moving Cole now does maximize his value (and I did not think they would), but you are still deep enough with pitching you have and acquired to be serious... if your stars are still stars.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Cole Traded to the Astros - For Real This Time
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:26 am 
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Never liked Cole since the game where he was seen bitching to Hurdle in the Pirate Dug Out about not taking him out of the game. Or leaving him in the game! I can't remember which now but he was definitely seen bitching to Hurdle.

He had proven is worth by then, or lack of worth, that the Pirates could not count on him in a big game! Hurdle gave him every opportunity to succeed and what did he do? He fell flat on his face.

I say goodbye to Mr. Cole. Moving onward!

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 Post subject: Re: Cole Traded to the Astros - For Real This Time
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:33 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Easy, their pitching is the best in the NLC.

You just pulled 3 players off the Astro's 40 man, and a highly regarded OF prospect. For a guy most of you were bitching about last year.

You needed a 3B to groom because Freese cannot go 150 games anymore. You got him. You got a guy that projects to the starting 5. You got bullpen help now.

We'll see, but moving Cole now does maximize his value (and I did not think they would), but you are still deep enough with pitching you have and acquired to be serious... if your stars are still stars.

ZM


^ This 100%+


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Traded to the Astros - For Real This Time
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:57 am 
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rellimie wrote:
What has Cole done to be an Ace/#1? Not saying he’s a bad pitcher and not the best on the Pirates but he’s not even close to a #1 when looking across the league.


Literally nothing but he was good like 2 years ago so we should not see profits but also get like the top 10 prospects in baseball for Cole.


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Traded to the Astros - For Real This Time
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:49 am 
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Quote:
What this tells me is that the front office is not going to trade McCutchen, or they are doubtful that they will be able to.


Good as already gone. There is a kid down in Indy that is thought to be an able replacement.

Quote:
A lot of “coulds” for a guy you could have kept for a year and probably got a similar haul. Typical Pirates. Won’t commit to win. Won’t make the trades that setup for the future either.


Cole was worth what they got. As is always the case. If he was worth more than that , someone would have offered more. As far as him pitching in Pittsburgh this year? It would likely have been a mistake. If he roasts his arm at some point, his value would have gone to ZERO.

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 Post subject: Re: Cole Traded to the Astros - For Real This Time
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:08 pm 
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Quote:

Cole was worth what they got. As is always the case. .


CBS, ESPN and everywhere else I’ve read disagrees. They think Cole was worth more and the return stinks.

And it doesn’t make me feel any better when you look at Huntington’s history with these deals.

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mlb- ... -for-cole/


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Traded to the Astros - For Real This Time
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:44 pm 
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Many believe the Bucs got less than they should have for Cole. That may be true but consider this. Cole has been decent the last two years but they were regressive years. He wasn't happy with the club. The FO tipped their hand looking like they had to trade him so the quality of return wasn't going to be what it should have. I won't judge this trade yet. They did get some good people who will help the team. Cole would never sign an extension with the Bucs, as soon as he could become a free agent, he was gone for nothing. Cole is a good pitcher and may get better but it wasn't going to be in a Buc uniform.


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Traded to the Astros - For Real This Time
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:33 pm 
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mbark757 wrote:
Many believe the Bucs got less than they should have for Cole. That may be true but consider this. Cole has been decent the last two years but they were regressive years. He wasn't happy with the club. The FO tipped their hand looking like they had to trade him so the quality of return wasn't going to be what it should have. I won't judge this trade yet. They did get some good people who will help the team. Cole would never sign an extension with the Bucs, as soon as he could become a free agent, he was gone for nothing. Cole is a good pitcher and may get better but it wasn't going to be in a Buc uniform.


This, and you won't know until you see them play.

Remember, this FO philosophy has always been the same and they are consistent with it. Stars come from within, the rest is salad dressing.

So, for the Bucs to win, their internal pitching has to perform. Cutch, Marte, Polanco, et. al. have to perform. The guys from Houston, Freese, et. al. have to support.

People have to realize the single biggest thing that screwed this team was Kung being an idiot.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Cole Traded to the Astros - For Real This Time
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:06 pm 
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I would have preferred Tucker or Fisher in the deal, but they may have gotten a decent 3B out of it. Plus Musgrove mite be a good 3 or 4 starter. Cole was definitely not good last year, so couldn't expect much more, IMO


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Traded to the Astros - For Real This Time
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:36 pm 
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Cranny92 wrote:
I would have preferred Tucker or Fisher in the deal, but they may have gotten a decent 3B out of it. Plus Musgrove mite be a good 3 or 4 starter. Cole was definitely not good last year, so couldn't expect much more, IMO


Yeah, me too. But I read someone's tweet that those two, along with Whitley and one other, were off the table. You know, if a GM tells me that 4 of his best prospects are off the table when I'm trying to trade Gerrit Cole to him, I'm going to hang up on him. Two or three, maybe. But you can't take 4 off the table.


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Traded to the Astros - For Real This Time
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:58 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
mbark757 wrote:
Many believe the Bucs got less than they should have for Cole. That may be true but consider this. Cole has been decent the last two years but they were regressive years. He wasn't happy with the club. The FO tipped their hand looking like they had to trade him so the quality of return wasn't going to be what it should have. I won't judge this trade yet. They did get some good people who will help the team. Cole would never sign an extension with the Bucs, as soon as he could become a free agent, he was gone for nothing. Cole is a good pitcher and may get better but it wasn't going to be in a Buc uniform.


This, and you won't know until you see them play.

Remember, this FO philosophy has always been the same and they are consistent with it. Stars come from within, the rest is salad dressing.

So, for the Bucs to win, their internal pitching has to perform. Cutch, Marte, Polanco, et. al. have to perform. The guys from Houston, Freese, et. al. have to support.

People have to realize the single biggest thing that screwed this team was Kung being an idiot.

ZM


Kang and the pitching basically falling off a cliff after 2015. No pitcher who made a start last year ended up with an ERA below 4


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Traded to the Astros - For Real This Time
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:19 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
Cranny92 wrote:
I would have preferred Tucker or Fisher in the deal, but they may have gotten a decent 3B out of it. Plus Musgrove mite be a good 3 or 4 starter. Cole was definitely not good last year, so couldn't expect much more, IMO


Yeah, me too. But I read someone's tweet that those two, along with Whitley and one other, were off the table. You know, if a GM tells me that 4 of his best prospects are off the table when I'm trying to trade Gerrit Cole to him, I'm going to hang up on him. Two or three, maybe. But you can't take 4 off the table.


You can get away with that if you are trading with Huntington and the Pirates. They always fold like a cheap suit and take the bad deal.


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Traded to the Astros - For Real This Time
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:49 pm 
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doug frobel wrote:
Cranny92 wrote:
I would have preferred Tucker or Fisher in the deal, but they may have gotten a decent 3B out of it. Plus Musgrove mite be a good 3 or 4 starter. Cole was definitely not good last year, so couldn't expect much more, IMO


Yeah, me too. But I read someone's tweet that those two, along with Whitley and one other, were off the table. You know, if a GM tells me that 4 of his best prospects are off the table when I'm trying to trade Gerrit Cole to him, I'm going to hang up on him. Two or three, maybe. But you can't take 4 off the table.


You can actually, when the guy you are trading isn't worth any of the 4 best prospects.


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Traded to the Astros - For Real This Time
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:54 am 
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So MLB Trade Rumors is reporting that while the Pirates liked Clint Frazier more than any other player, the package as a whole is better from the Astros. Whatever the Yankees were offering with Frazier did not equal what Houston offered.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/01/ ... nsler.html


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Traded to the Astros - For Real This Time
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:52 am 
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I’d be willing to wager good money that Cole has TJ surgery sometime in the next three years.
There’s only so much torque an elbow can take.

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 Post subject: Re: Cole Traded to the Astros - For Real This Time
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:26 am 
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I have mixed feelings about the deal. Like everyone else, I would rather have seen higher-end talent, but three young major-league players and a decent prospect seems like an ok return.

Like I always say, do you think Huntington was turning down better offers to get to this one?

I don't buy the argument that Cole's value was lessened because everyone knew the Pirates wanted to trade him. He was available to the highest bidder. How else would you solicit bids, without letting everyone know you wanted them? The Pirates still had the option of rejecting all of the bids.


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Traded to the Astros - For Real This Time
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:31 pm 
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Ralphie wrote:
I have mixed feelings about the deal. Like everyone else, I would rather have seen higher-end talent, but three young major-league players and a decent prospect seems like an ok return.

Like I always say, do you think Huntington was turning down better offers to get to this one?

I don't buy the argument that Cole's value was lessened because everyone knew the Pirates wanted to trade him. He was available to the highest bidder. How else would you solicit bids, without letting everyone know you wanted them? The Pirates still had the option of rejecting all of the bids.


I'm willing to bet that there were higher ceiling prospects available but Huntington wanted Major League or close to major league players.


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Traded to the Astros - For Real This Time
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:46 pm 
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rellimie wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
I have mixed feelings about the deal. Like everyone else, I would rather have seen higher-end talent, but three young major-league players and a decent prospect seems like an ok return.

Like I always say, do you think Huntington was turning down better offers to get to this one?

I don't buy the argument that Cole's value was lessened because everyone knew the Pirates wanted to trade him. He was available to the highest bidder. How else would you solicit bids, without letting everyone know you wanted them? The Pirates still had the option of rejecting all of the bids.


I'm willing to bet that there were higher ceiling prospects available but Huntington wanted Major League or close to major league players.


You're probably right. It would be interesting to know what was offered, but we won't.


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 Post subject: Re: Cole Traded to the Astros - For Real This Time
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:53 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Easy, their pitching is the best in the NLC.

They finished behind Milwaukee and Chicago and just ahead of STL according to Baseball Reference and they just traded away their best pitcher per the same source.

You just pulled 3 players off the Astro's 40 man, and a highly regarded OF prospect. For a guy most of you were bitching about last year.

Three guys that were bottom feeders on their roster including one that was exposed and not selected in the Rule 5. Not sure by whom Martin is highly regarded. Everything I have read projects him to be a 4th OF at best. Decent speed, little power, pretty much a meh type of player. He was the 7th best OF in the Houston system and that doesn’t include their ML roster.

You needed a 3B to groom because Freese cannot go 150 games anymore. You got him. You got a guy that projects to the starting 5. You got bullpen help now.

Moran was expendable as well. Hardly a loss for the Astros. In fact it makes room for JD Davis to start in AAA. He is the 2nd best option for Houston as a AAA 3B and backup CI. They are the WS champs and the best team, but that’s sad if he is the headliner of the deal.

We'll see, but moving Cole now does maximize his value (and I did not think they would), but you are still deep enough with pitching you have and acquired to be serious... if your stars are still stars.

Maximize his value? I guess, but that sure is a poor return for your number 1 overall pick with 2 years of control left. Either you picked the wrong guy or you failed to get the best out of him.

What stars are you speaking of? If Huntington and the process is reliant on producing it’s own stars then they better start acquiring and developing them.


ZM


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