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 Post subject: Re: Blue Jays/Marlins possible blockbuster
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:56 pm 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
In his hypothetical, he traded Marte for Stanton.


Even if the pricetag on Stanton would be enormous, I'd still inquire. He'd completely change the team.


Absolutely. A nucleus of Cutch/Stanton/Pedro/Walker would be formidable.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue Jays/Marlins possible blockbuster
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:18 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
In his hypothetical, he traded Marte for Stanton.


Even if the pricetag on Stanton would be enormous, I'd still inquire. He'd completely change the team.


Absolutely. A nucleus of Cutch/Stanton/Pedro/Walker would be formidable.


It sure would be, but your proposed deal is an awful lot to pay - Jameson Taillon, Starling Marte, Gregory Polanco, and Kyle McPherson

That's 3 top 50 prospects in MLB and a back end SP all with 6 years of control. I don't think we have the kind of depth to make that kind of move (we certainly don't have the SP). This is the type of trade that Texas could afford, maybe a few others. It doesn't hurt to ask, maybe Loria is still in fire sale mode. If you can get Josh Johnson and Jose Reyes for no top 50 prospects who knows?

Anyway, Miami won't trade him this year since he is making 500k. They will wait until 2013 offseason when his 3 arbitration years are starting. His value then drops since he will get $30-40 million for those 3 years. Of course they could extend him, then trade him which would really piss Miami off.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue Jays/Marlins possible blockbuster
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:22 pm 
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I really wouldn't mind giving up Taillon in a deal like that and as far as Marte is concerned, I love Marte but he's not Gianmike Stanton and never will be. I'd let Marte stay on my couch until he finds a place if that's what it would take to get that deal done.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue Jays/Marlins possible blockbuster
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:35 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
In his hypothetical, he traded Marte for Stanton.


Even if the pricetag on Stanton would be enormous, I'd still inquire. He'd completely change the team.


Absolutely. A nucleus of Cutch/Stanton/Pedro/Walker would be formidable.


It sure would be, but your proposed deal is an awful lot to pay - Jameson Taillon, Starling Marte, Gregory Polanco, and Kyle McPherson

That's 3 top 50 prospects in MLB and a back end SP all with 6 years of control. I don't think we have the kind of depth to make that kind of move (we certainly don't have the SP). This is the type of trade that Texas could afford, maybe a few others. It doesn't hurt to ask, maybe Loria is still in fire sale mode. If you can get Josh Johnson and Jose Reyes for no top 50 prospects who knows?


Would you seriously balk at that deal? I'd do it in a heartbeat. We're talking about a 23-year-old slugger who has the potential to lead the league in HRs multiple years. Pay up.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue Jays/Marlins possible blockbuster
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:52 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
Given this development -- and I'm dead serious about this -- the Pirates should go after Giancarlo Stanton. He actually tweeted that he was "pissed off" about the trade and he may have turned against the club. If I'm Neal Huntington, I'm offering the Marlins a collection of any players not named Andrew McCutchen or Gerrit Cole for Stanton right now.


Great idea.

No reason not to try.


The problem is that every team in baseball would want Stanton and his 4 years of team control. The price tag would be enormous, as JC suggested. LoMo would be more realistic and he does fit NH's love for former elite prospects that haven't broken through.


Morrison would be an alright add for cheap. An A+ or AA arm plus a Gorkys type.

Otherwise, Stanton would be worth the price tag.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue Jays/Marlins possible blockbuster
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:11 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Would you seriously balk at that deal? I'd do it in a heartbeat. We're talking about a 23-year-old slugger who has the potential to lead the league in HRs multiple years. Pay up.


Absolutely do that deal.

The $$$ saved by keeping Stanton on the cheap (even when he went to arb his pricetag would be a fraction compared to 'market price') could be spent on pitching.

Besides, Cole would still be in the fold, as would others (Wilson, Locke, etc.)

Plus, you know, the lineup with Stanton in it would put runs on the board, asses in seats and dollars in Nutting's pockets!

Still, BD is probably right. The Phish will retain poor Stanton until his tag does go up.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue Jays/Marlins possible blockbuster
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:29 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:

Absolutely. A nucleus of Cutch/Stanton/Pedro/Walker would be formidable.


It sure would be, but your proposed deal is an awful lot to pay - Jameson Taillon, Starling Marte, Gregory Polanco, and Kyle McPherson

That's 3 top 50 prospects in MLB and a back end SP all with 6 years of control. I don't think we have the kind of depth to make that kind of move (we certainly don't have the SP). This is the type of trade that Texas could afford, maybe a few others. It doesn't hurt to ask, maybe Loria is still in fire sale mode. If you can get Josh Johnson and Jose Reyes for no top 50 prospects who knows?


Would you seriously balk at that deal? I'd do it in a heartbeat. We're talking about a 23-year-old slugger who has the potential to lead the league in HRs multiple years. Pay up.


Count me in the minority, I would not trade that much for him. I just don't think that trading multiple high quality parts for a quick fix is a sustainable strategy for the Pirates under the current rules. I understand the desire to add a star player, but I feel that it is mostly wishful thinking.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue Jays/Marlins possible blockbuster
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:40 pm 
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A quick fix? This isn't getting a year of, say, Adam Dunn. This would be trading a bunch of prospects for a guy that you would dream even one of your prospects would turn out to be. That was a tortured sentence. And you'd have him for 6 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue Jays/Marlins possible blockbuster
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:31 pm 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
A quick fix? This isn't getting a year of, say, Adam Dunn. This would be trading a bunch of prospects for a guy that you would dream even one of your prospects would turn out to be. That was a tortured sentence. And you'd have him for 6 years.


You would have him for 4 years instead of a potential #1,2 SP, a #3-4 SP, a 3-4 WAR OF, and a top 30 or 40 prospect in MLB all of which you do have for 6+ years and about $40 million in salary. I understand the deal fully, Stanton is a 6 WAR OF with the most power in MLB. I would keep the four players and the money that can be spent elsewhere. We have too many needs to focus talent on one position. We don't have the type of system depth that could compensate for the losses at the top. For me, the 4 wins we would get over Tabata/Snider in RF isn't worth giving up the potential 5 to 7 wins on the mound. You keep the cheap prospects and spend $40 million a a free agent that can give another 3 wins and you are far ahead to pass on one star. There also is the risk with Stanton regarding his 29% K rate, we have seen how far south a guy can go with so much swing and miss in his game.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue Jays/Marlins possible blockbuster
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:24 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
It sure would be, but your proposed deal is an awful lot to pay - Jameson Taillon, Starling Marte, Gregory Polanco, and Kyle McPherson

That's 3 top 50 prospects in MLB and a back end SP all with 6 years of control. I don't think we have the kind of depth to make that kind of move (we certainly don't have the SP). This is the type of trade that Texas could afford, maybe a few others. It doesn't hurt to ask, maybe Loria is still in fire sale mode. If you can get Josh Johnson and Jose Reyes for no top 50 prospects who knows?


Would you seriously balk at that deal? I'd do it in a heartbeat. We're talking about a 23-year-old slugger who has the potential to lead the league in HRs multiple years. Pay up.


Count me in the minority, I would not trade that much for him. I just don't think that trading multiple high quality parts for a quick fix is a sustainable strategy for the Pirates under the current rules. I understand the desire to add a star player, but I feel that it is mostly wishful thinking.


I get what you're saying about having too many holes. We've got a lot, possibly because we have a lot of marginal players in them. And I hate Ks, so count me old fashioned in that regard.

But... Any number of prospects aren't worth a quality player. Until Taillon, Cole, Marte etc have proven they belong in the majors, they're just pipe dreams. Youth potential doesn't win you a lot of games.

Now, if it was me, I would build pitching first. I don't pay a lot of attention to the minors, but we'd need half a dozen Coles and Taillons in the minors to be able to build that way. We've got two, so if only one of them grows up to become a stud major leaguer, we ought to be happy.

There's another we need that we have. We need a true #2 bat in the lineup. We lived through 2 late season collapses with Walker and Pedro as our #2 and #3 hitters. They need to be our third and fourth best hitters.

If we can trade prospects (or as I used to call prospects in the real estate industry: suspects) for a true quality hitter, who we'd have for four years, then I say do it.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue Jays/Marlins possible blockbuster
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:57 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
A quick fix? This isn't getting a year of, say, Adam Dunn. This would be trading a bunch of prospects for a guy that you would dream even one of your prospects would turn out to be. That was a tortured sentence. And you'd have him for 6 years.


You would have him for 4 years instead of a potential #1,2 SP, a #3-4 SP, a 3-4 WAR OF, and a top 30 or 40 prospect in MLB all of which you do have for 6+ years and about $40 million in salary. I understand the deal fully, Stanton is a 6 WAR OF with the most power in MLB. I would keep the four players and the money that can be spent elsewhere. We have too many needs to focus talent on one position. We don't have the type of system depth that could compensate for the losses at the top. For me, the 4 wins we would get over Tabata/Snider in RF isn't worth giving up the potential 5 to 7 wins on the mound. You keep the cheap prospects and spend $40 million a a free agent that can give another 3 wins and you are far ahead to pass on one star. There also is the risk with Stanton regarding his 29% K rate, we have seen how far south a guy can go with so much swing and miss in his game.



But who exactly do you spend all of this money you save on? Who is this $40 million free agent? If somebody like Relapse Hamilton were available for say 2 years $40 mil, I'd say absolutely. But those guys don't take $40 million deals.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue Jays/Marlins possible blockbuster
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:04 pm 
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I agree with Barry, too much top end talent to give up for one player.

Marte has already proven himself in my eyes. He's going to be good. Not Mike Stanton good, but good. And Taillon is the bluest of blue chippers. I am not trading him for anyone. I really think he is going to be the one we've been waiting for. Justin Verlander level, there I said it.

And it's all hot stove talk anyway because the Pirates don't even consider those types of deals.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue Jays/Marlins possible blockbuster
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:17 pm 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
A quick fix? This isn't getting a year of, say, Adam Dunn. This would be trading a bunch of prospects for a guy that you would dream even one of your prospects would turn out to be. That was a tortured sentence. And you'd have him for 6 years.


You would have him for 4 years instead of a potential #1,2 SP, a #3-4 SP, a 3-4 WAR OF, and a top 30 or 40 prospect in MLB all of which you do have for 6+ years and about $40 million in salary. I understand the deal fully, Stanton is a 6 WAR OF with the most power in MLB. I would keep the four players and the money that can be spent elsewhere. We have too many needs to focus talent on one position. We don't have the type of system depth that could compensate for the losses at the top. For me, the 4 wins we would get over Tabata/Snider in RF isn't worth giving up the potential 5 to 7 wins on the mound. You keep the cheap prospects and spend $40 million a a free agent that can give another 3 wins and you are far ahead to pass on one star. There also is the risk with Stanton regarding his 29% K rate, we have seen how far south a guy can go with so much swing and miss in his game.



But who exactly do you spend all of this money you save on? Who is this $40 million free agent? If somebody like Relapse Hamilton were available for say 2 years $40 mil, I'd say absolutely. But those guys don't take $40 million deals.


The $40 million free agent is a SP, not a bat, someone like Edwin Jackson on a 3 year deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue Jays/Marlins possible blockbuster
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:25 pm 
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I'm sure they will try for a deal like that....hopefully there's enough hope here that a free agent worth a damn will consider joining the Bucs.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue Jays/Marlins possible blockbuster
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:32 pm 
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So if the Marlins are looking to move Logan Morrison and Ricky Nolasco, is that something worth looking at? I don't see Stanton being in our price range but Morrison (24) and Nolasco (29) seems like moves the Pirates could make. Would then free up Jones to be traded for a catcher, maybe Toronto since they have a excess and may still be looking for an upgrade at 1b and/or DH.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue Jays/Marlins possible blockbuster
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:39 pm 
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We have a "Morrison" already. His name is Travis Snider.

Taking shots on former big-time prospects whose stars are fading may be NH's specialty, but I'd say picking up an actual star would be a better idea. I'd give up a fair ransom for Stanton, and he would be a HUGE part of the Pirates' offense for the next 4 or 5 years. If it takes a bunch of big-time prospects? Fine! Build around Cole, Cutch, Stanton, Pedro, and Walker.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue Jays/Marlins possible blockbuster
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:32 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
We have a "Morrison" already. His name is Travis Snider.

Taking shots on former big-time prospects whose stars are fading may be NH's specialty, but I'd say picking up an actual star would be a better idea. I'd give up a fair ransom for Stanton, and he would be a HUGE part of the Pirates' offense for the next 4 or 5 years. If it takes a bunch of big-time prospects? Fine! Build around Cole, Cutch, Stanton, Pedro, and Walker.

Completely agree.

You have prospects so you can trade them for established stars.


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